Commandant Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, dlbalr said: That might be the market from past years but it's still not a price I'd pay. If I'm parting with a first round asset, I want someone who's going to be around more than just the next 3-5 months. Even in the sellers' markets, there are usually some bargain depth guys to be had and I'd rather add a couple of those than pay a first for a middle six rental player. Normally I agree with you, but a 2017 first doesn't have the same value as a normal first in my mind. It's a garbage draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 On 9/26/2016 at 10:04 PM, ehjay said: My bad maybe I wasn't to clear either... I was thinking the Habs could offer Beaulieu + Pleky + 1st pick. Like I had said I didn't do the cap count for both teams nor really checked if the need for Jets to be right on their end... it was just a thought since there seems to be a lot of chatter out there about Nate on market Galchenyuk has come back. The reason for Hanzal was to replace the void at center. We have done that most admirably sans Hanzal. I don't see the pressing need there was thought to be. Secondly, look for prices to drop, for secondary pieces, teams will want to get something for pieces of value they can not protect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Aves wouldn't part with Landeskog for Sergachev and someone with somewhat equal salary would they? They just mentioned Habs may be more interested in him than Duschene? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, DON said: Aves wouldn't part with Landeskog for Sergachev and someone with somewhat equal salary would they? They just mentioned Habs may be more interested in him than Duschene? So we want to give Sergachev for a winger (not centre) who hasn't hit the 60 point mark in 3 years, and has 9 goals and 16 points this season? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 The only way I include Sergachev is if it lands Montreal Landeskog and Duchene and Colorado takes back salary. Pleks, DD, and Sergachev for Duchene and Landeskog. Maybe include a draft pick or a DLR type of prospect. Top 6 of: Landeskog - Duchene - Radulov Pacs - Galchenyuk - Gallagher yowzas!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, TheDriveFor25 said: The only way I include Sergachev is if it lands Montreal Landeskog and Duchene and Colorado takes back salary. Pleks, DD, and Sergachev for Duchene and Landeskog. Maybe include a draft pick or a DLR type of prospect. Top 6 of: Landeskog - Duchene - Radulov Pacs - Galchenyuk - Gallagher yowzas!!! This is insane. Joe Sakic would be killed before getting home in the evening. Seriously, if you were him, would you do those moves ? 1- Duchene for Plekanek, 1st oa (most likely 25th+) and DLR 2- Landeskog for Desharnais and Sergachev I would do none of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Commandant said: So we want to give Sergachev for a winger (not centre) who hasn't hit the 60 point mark in 3 years, and has 9 goals and 16 points this season? Why? Who said we 'want' to? Talking heads simply said Habs may be more interested in the Swede than Duchene and Sakic would be looking for d-man in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 By we, i meant you as a fan seemed to be supporting the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 32 minutes ago, JoeLassister said: This is insane. Joe Sakic would be killed before getting home in the evening. Seriously, if you were him, would you do those moves ? 1- Duchene for Plekanek, 1st oa (most likely 25th+) and DLR 2- Landeskog for Desharnais and Sergachev I would do none of them. I wouldn't trade Sergachev for Landeskog straight up. He's a can't miss prospect. Might be the homer in me, maybe I'm over-valuing our players - but Sakic has a terrible team right now, even with Duch and Landeskog, so if he's looking to blow it up then MB can try and take advantage of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Trading Sergachev goes completely against Bergevin Philosophy about building through the draft I understand the win now situation, but as close as next year, sergachev could be an impact player. Look at what Provorov is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Here is how I feel about trading Sergachev to Colorado, Is MacKinnon and a pick coming back? No? Then no thanks... This team needs Sergachev in their not too distant future. It's a young man's league, and D prospects or draft picks like him, are rare to a team usually in the playoff picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 In my opinion, there is something that we need more than Sergachev in the not too distant future. It is a trophy associated with Frederick Arthur Stanley, 16th Earl of Derb, alson known as Lord Stanley of Preston. I don't give a damn about Sergachev if the player(s) we get in return brings us #25. Of course, I'd rather part with Juulsen than Sergachev though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Commandant said: By we, i meant you as a fan seemed to be supporting the idea. You are simply making assumptions, which are wrong. I simply 'asked' if Aves would part with their captain for Sergachev. You think it is a bad deal for Habs, which many might agree with, seeing as the Swede isn't an offensive superstar. Me, not quite as sold on Landeskog as Duchene, but also don't think Sergachev is a lock to be a top pairing d-man as you seem to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Stogey24 said: Trading Sergachev goes completely against Bergevin Philosophy about building through the draft I understand the win now situation, but as close as next year, sergachev could be an impact player. Look at what Provorov is doing. 4g 18a on a terrible defensive team, good offense for a rookie d-man; but, is that an impact player? Safe to say that Duchene would have more impact than that for a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 3 hours ago, JoeLassister said: In my opinion, there is something that we need more than Sergachev in the not too distant future. It is a trophy associated with Frederick Arthur Stanley, 16th Earl of Derb, alson known as Lord Stanley of Preston. I don't give a damn about Sergachev if the player(s) we get in return brings us #25. Of course, I'd rather part with Juulsen than Sergachev though... Can you guarantee me that trading Sergachev gets us a Stanley Cup? Cause if you could, it wouldn't be a debate. The issue is that no one can guarantee the outcome of a trade. I'd rather have Sergachev for the next 10-15 years than go all in for 3-4 years. More chances to win one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 3 hours ago, DON said: 4g 18a on a terrible defensive team, good offense for a rookie d-man; but, is that an impact player? Safe to say that Duchene would have more impact than that for a team. I think Duchene would be a great fit. He's basically a model player to the Habs system. I just don't want to give up a kid who has the potential to be a #1 D-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 48 minutes ago, Commandant said: Can you guarantee me that trading Sergachev gets us a Stanley Cup? Cause if you could, it wouldn't be a debate. The issue is that no one can guarantee the outcome of a trade. I'd rather have Sergachev for the next 10-15 years than go all in for 3-4 years. More chances to win one. The same way that no one can guarantee the outcome of a trade, no one can guarantee the outcome of a prospect's future. To say you'd rather have 10-15 years of Sergachev is saying that he will certainly develop into an elite defenseman. There's a chance he could be a stud and there's a chance he could flop or just be an average NHLer. And even if he becomes elite, it doesnt mean the future Habs team will be in the conversation for a cup contender. There's plenty of elite players on teams nowhere as close to the cup as the Habs currently are. I'd push all my chips in the middle and go for the best chance at winning in this contention window with a known commodity in a player like Duchene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 35 minutes ago, illWill said: The same way that no one can guarantee the outcome of a trade, no one can guarantee the outcome of a prospect's future. To say you'd rather have 10-15 years of Sergachev is saying that he will certainly develop into an elite defenseman. There's a chance he could be a stud and there's a chance he could flop or just be an average NHLer. And even if he becomes elite, it doesnt mean the future Habs team will be in the conversation for a cup contender. There's plenty of elite players on teams nowhere as close to the cup as the Habs currently are. I'd push all my chips in the middle and go for the best chance at winning in this contention window with a known commodity in a player like Duchene. Yes there are no guarantees. I'm more willing to bet on Sergachev becoming a top 1/top 2 level guy than I am willing to bet that a 60 point forward is what puts us over the top right now. If you want to change the subject to an elite talent, I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 38 minutes ago, Commandant said: Yes there are no guarantees. I'm more willing to bet on Sergachev becoming a top 1/top 2 level guy than I am willing to bet that a 60 point forward is what puts us over the top right now. If you want to change the subject to an elite talent, I'm all ears. Just going off talking head speculation anyways! I really think all Bergevin will do in Mid-late Feb is add a upcoming UFA vet skater, not a high priced elite roster player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 19 hours ago, Stogey24 said: Trading Sergachev goes completely against Bergevin Philosophy about building through the draft I understand the win now situation, but as close as next year, sergachev could be an impact player. Look at what Provorov is doing. I completly disagree that Bergevin is building through the draft. This is not how you build through the draft. Building through the draft involves way more tanking than what we've seen. Absolutely doesn't involve trading away 2nd rounders for Vanek nor Subban for Weber. Building through the draft will never have you rely on 32+ yo dmen on your 1st pair before winning at least 1 Cup. It involves drafting key pieces at the right moment expecting them to come along in their prime about all the same time. To achieve this, you have to start with defensemen who take longer to reach their true potential. Then you draft forwards. When the time has come, you use draft picks to aquire quality locker room vétérans and great goaltending. With Price at 29yo, Weber (31), Markov (38), Pacioretty (28), Radulov (30) and Petry (29), it is clear to me that the Habs are 100% in a win now situation. If Bergevin is building through the draft, then we're fawked. It means that Juulsen and Sergachev were year 1 and 2 of a looong process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 36 minutes ago, JoeLassister said: I completly disagree that Bergevin is building through the draft. This is not how you build through the draft. Building through the draft involves way more tanking than what we've seen. Wrong. Absolutely doesn't involve trading away 2nd rounders for Vanek nor Subban for Weber. Irrelevant. Building through the draft will never have you rely on 32+ yo dmen on your 1st pair before winning at least 1 Cup. So Wings should of traded Lidstrom? Dosent make sense. It involves drafting key pieces at the right moment expecting them to come along in their prime about all the same time. Wrong (in my Trump voice again) To achieve this, you have to start with defensemen who take longer to reach their true potential. Not how drafting works. Then you draft forwards. BPA When the time has come, you use draft picks to aquire quality locker room vétérans and great goaltending. Sure, but any or every playoff team does this. With Price at 29yo, Weber (31), Markov (38), Pacioretty (28), Radulov (30) and Petry (29), it is clear to me that the Habs are 100% in a win now situation. KInda agree. If Bergevin is building through the draft, then we're fawked. It means that Juulsen and Sergachev were year 1 and 2 of a looong process. You skipped on, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, Scherbak. Reway may of made his debut this year if not for heart issue, Mete, Bitten, Bourque all doing very well at junior level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Imo McCarron and Sergachev are untouchable. They each have a dynamic that you cannot trade for. Plekanec and his $6m would have to be the center piece. Having Fucale, McNiven & Lindgren is excessive. With Lehkonen playing solid. Scherbak is expendable. Hudon should be moved while his stock has value. His chances at top 6 with Habs are bleak. Championship teams always flip their firsts come trade dead line to bolster cup runs. If the Habs window is 2-3-4 years. Those 1st round picks are on the table. If I were Bergevin and I had to buy a player and go in heavy. Plekanec, Andrighetto, Scherbak, Hudon, Juulsen, a goalie and some firsts could go and the organization wouldn't skip a beat. Most especially for Duchene. Like Johansen before him. This is an opportunity to strike. Landeskog is nice but LW is not a priority. I would even consider Lehkonen if it meant Duchene. But like mentioned before, If MacKinnon is on the table. They just might can maybe have both McCarron & Sergachev if they so choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, DON said: I completly disagree that Bergevin is building through the draft. This is not how you build through the draft. Building through the draft involves way more tanking than what we've seen. Wrong. Alright, I will rephrase : Building a SC champion through the draft. Absolutely doesn't involve trading away 2nd rounders for Vanek nor Subban for Weber. Irrelevant. How so ? You think trading away draft picks for actual established players means building through the draft ? I don't. Building through the draft will never have you rely on 32+ yo dmen on your 1st pair before winning at least 1 Cup. So Wings should of traded Lidstrom? Dosent make sense. Irrelevant. Everything that happened prior to cap space ERA is irrelevant in today's hockey. And 2002 SC by the Wings was won by a lot of players brought in like Hasek, Shanahan, Hull, Chelios, Larionov, etc. You're telling me that the Wings were "building through the draft" when they picked Datsyuk and Zett in round 6 and 7 ? Never. They just got Lucky as fawk. It involves drafting key pieces at the right moment expecting them to come along in their prime about all the same time. Wrong (in my Trump voice again) How so ? Chicago won Cups and put some kind of dynasty on ice doing just that while other teams like Edmonton failed trying to always draft the BPA. To achieve this, you have to start with defensemen who take longer to reach their true potential. Not how drafting works. That's your opinion. Mine is that BPA is not always the way to go if you keep ignoring your weaknesses. Then you draft forwards. BPA Your opinion. Not mine. See Edmonton Oilers. When the time has come, you use draft picks to aquire quality locker room vétérans and great goaltending. Sure, but any or every playoff team does this. With Price at 29yo, Weber (31), Markov (38), Pacioretty (28), Radulov (30) and Petry (29), it is clear to me that the Habs are 100% in a win now situation. KInda agree. If Bergevin is building through the draft, then we're fawked. It means that Juulsen and Sergachev were year 1 and 2 of a looong process. You skipped on, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, Scherbak. Reway may of made his debut this year if not for heart issue, Other than Galchenyuk, none of them will be 1st line material, IMO.Mete, Bitten, Bourque all doing very well at junior level. I have 0 confidence that any of them will ever dress in a Habs jersey for a playoffs game. Again, not saying that how Bergevin built this team is wrong in any way. Just saying that he definitely didn't built this team through the draft as a GM should do if his goal is to build a SC Champion. He just took another way. Could lead us to a SC. But will most likely happen before anyone you named here except Galchenyuk will become an impact playoffs player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, JoeLassister said: Like you said Joe, just my opinion and will simply agree to disagree. cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Building through the draft doesn't mean your entire team has to be players you've drafted. Galchenyuk is building through the draft, Beaulieu is building through the draft, Lehkonen is building through the draft. . You need young players on ELC's (or bridge deals), so you then in turn have money to spend on the veteran scorers of the league In salary cap era it's the only way to win a cup, so I'm not sure what your talking about Trading a second for Vanek was a hell of a move. Probably one of the best of Bergevin's career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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