IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i dont know... im the kind of guy who never says die ever!!! as far fetched as making the playoffs seem technically we need to replicate half a season comparable to all of boston, NY, philly, van, det, chic, st louis this season all having reached 52 or more in the first half! then you have OTT florida sanjose all firing in at 50 pts! this is definetly do-able considering we've been able to beat all those teams on any given night outside of chicago and detroit in recent times! not to mention we made a similar run what 3 seasons ago to get into the playoffs and go all the way to the conference finals. now im not saying dont trade campoli or weber gill etc.. guys who wont have a spot here beyond this season.. im just saying it aint over just yet break it down: winnepeg had a strong 10 game stretch and have now cooled off pitt's in a load of trouble now with no crosby, neal 6 weeks and staal 4-6! is letang back? toronto... well no comment! buffalo... injuries have crippled them also and i think toe to toe were better ott has played well of late and have shown no signs of letting up NJ is good to and i think stay in the mix 1. BOS 2. NYR 3. Philly 4. FLA 5. NJ 6. WAS 7. MON 8. OTT 9.TOR 10. PITT 11. winn 12. buff we cant all go 25-11-5 to end the season??? is it achievable for us?? well if we can stay relatively healthy which has been the biggest key for us over the years then i think we can and will do it... january is the key! winning head to head games and the confidence boosting return of markov and white in february! DONT FORGET the "NEW/OLD" goal song HAS given me an added ray of hope that something magical is about to happen!!LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 who actually has no trade/ movement clauses besides gomez's 3 dont trade me destinations and cole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We can make the playoffs, it's just not probable. Like everyone says, if we rattle off 6-7 wins - the sort of winning streak that happens all the time in the 'new' NHL - the picture will look very different. It goes without saying that what will happen is this: -Habs get hot, enter playoff picture by trade deadline -Habs accordingly stand pat at the deadline -a game or two after the deadline, one or more of Price, Subban, Plekanec, Pacioretty, and/or several other key guys will go down with major injuries -decimated, we then hit a tailspin and finish a few points out of a lottery pick Why will this happen? Because we are the post-Roy Montreal Canadiens. Ya heard it here first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We can make the playoffs, it's just not probable. Like everyone says, if we rattle off 6-7 wins - the sort of winning streak that happens all the time in the 'new' NHL - the picture will look very different. It goes without saying that what will happen is this: -Habs get hot, enter playoff picture by trade deadline -Habs accordingly stand pat at the deadline -a game or two after the deadline, one or more of Price, Subban, Plekanec, Pacioretty, and/or several other key guys will go down with major injuries -decimated, we then hit a tailspin and finish a few points out of a lottery pick Why will this happen? Because we are the post-Roy Montreal Canadiens. Ya heard it here first. Ugghhh... the sad part is that I think you are so right here. I should be upset about your skepticism, but I am not. This is pretty much how it's gone lately. I wish I could get excited like you guys about a lottery pick. I just don't think it's going to happen. And for me, I would rather come in 8th or 9th and enjoy the drama of the rest of the season than come in 10th to 12th and think that the team is junk. The only way I hope for a very poor finish is if the Habs drop further in the standings before the deadline and get some picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Ugghhh... the sad part is that I think you are so right here. I should be upset about your skepticism, but I am not. This is pretty much how it's gone lately. I wish I could get excited like you guys about a lottery pick. I just don't think it's going to happen. And for me, I would rather come in 8th or 9th and enjoy the drama of the rest of the season than come in 10th to 12th and think that the team is junk. The only way I hope for a very poor finish is if the Habs drop further in the standings before the deadline and get some picks. We have a better chance of playoffs than a lottery pick, Columbus, OIlers, Isles, etc have the basement locked up. If Price gets hurt is only way the Habs sink that low to get in top 5. I see 9th-12th as finishing slot, which will still net a very promising pick, just not one who will likely suit up for Habs as a teenager. But, the main thing i hope to see is Gauthier getting some picks in return for upcoming UFAs and stockpiling 2nd round or later picks, again i will point to the fatc that in 2007, which was the last year the Habs have had a 2nd round pick, they found a Mr. Subban and there are many 2nd round and later picks who just played in Junior championships, while we traded away for Sopel's, Moores, Mara's, etc, that is about my only beef with Gauthier and Gainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 They are out of the playoff picture whether Gomez, White or Markov comes back. I would would put Markov on LTIR and save the cap hit. Just get him ready for next year. Save the cap hit for what? You later say that you aren't acquiring any big name players, so whats the point of saving the cap hit. I'm confused how if your plan is to write off this season, any excess cap space helps this season. They won't any dumb moves to save the season. If they do they all should immeduiately get fired including the owner.They have some assests they can move to improve next year. They have some good young players. They can move Pleks, Cammy, Moen, AK46 Weber Gill, Campoli. I know, i don't hate Pleks, just think it's time to move him. If you move Pleks, now you are looking for 2 centres, not 1. You have just set the team back even farther. On top of that, we've gone through the UFA list, there is noone to replace Pleks with. There is no top line centre in UFA this year, heck if Zach Parise re-signs in New Jersey, there won't be any top notch wingers either, not anyone who is better than Cammalleri. What they need back is a LW like Clowe, a LW like Torres and a big cnter prospect. They can also land another first rounder.It still leaves the roster in decent shape with the return they get from some of those players. I believe Leblanc will make it on the roster next year, have a battle between Gallegher and Cristo for a RW position. The team is younger next year, they still need a direction, coaching staff and possibly a GM to get everyone movign in the same direction. I don't think a blow up lieaves the roster in good shape at all, I don't think those rookies are gonna be ready for the prime time ice you'll need them to play. Yes Leblanc is near ready, but near ready to be a third liner and work his way up the roster, not ready to be given the role he'll get if AK, Cammy, and Moen are all gone. They are more physical and entertaining since the coaching change, but they aren't good enough to pass 5 teams and make the playoffs. Maybe they are not gonna pass 5 teams this year. But that doesn't mean you handicap them for next season too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We have a better chance of playoffs than a lottery pick, Columbus, OIlers, Isles, etc have the basement locked up. If Price gets hurt is only way the Habs sink that low to get in top 5. I see 9th-12th as finishing slot, which will still net a very promising pick, just not one who will likely suit up for Habs as a teenager. But, the main thing i hope to see is Gauthier getting some picks in return for upcoming UFAs and stockpiling 2nd round or later picks, again i will point to the fatc that in 2007, which was the last year the Habs have had a 2nd round pick, they found a Mr. Subban and there are many 2nd round and later picks who just played in Junior championships, while we traded away for Sopel's, Moores, Mara's, etc, that is about my only beef with Gauthier and Gainey I totally agree with you. I looked at our first round picks since 1980 and it was not that impressive. The only one to pan out recently "as elite" has been Price. By that I mean that we have other first rounders who are very good, but really are no better than some of our 2nd to 5th rounders. Next to Leblanc, our top prospect in the system is Gallagher. A 5th rounder. Top 5 picks normally turn out, but I just don't think we will be bad enough to make the bottom 5. We are then in the 7th to 14th overall, and from what I have seen, with the exception of the top 3, the draft order is never a good representation of how well the players perform once they are in the league. For that reason, I would rather stay competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Commandant, I'm not sure how making some moves getting rid of underachievers is decemating the team for next year. Let's say as an example they can get rid of some of the players i said and get a decent legit return. Clowe Gomez Gionta Pacs DD Cole Torres type player Eller Gallagher Griity two way forward who kills penalties( Leblanc or Nokeleinen) with white Markov Gorges' Kaberle get a stay at home defenseman likea gleason Emelin Subban Diaz You also get 2 firsts and 2 seconds getting rid of the players i suggested. Is that line up far less better then the current one? I don't think it is. All the players who are producing are still on that roster with additional picks to make something happen. I do watch alot of hockey,not just the habs, i have seen good teams, the habs are just not one of them Injuries are definatley a reason, along with coaching decisions, underachievers, etc. Even when fully healthy i think they have too many of the same type of players. good teams don't have 3 similar centers. All i am saying is they have a chance to upgrade the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Commandant, I'm not sure how making some moves getting rid of underachievers is decemating the team for next year. Let's say as an example they can get rid of some of the players i said and get a decent legit return. Clowe Gomez Gionta Pacs DD Cole Torres type player Eller Gallagher Griity two way forward who kills penalties( Leblanc or Nokeleinen) with white Markov Gorges' Kaberle get a stay at home defenseman likea gleason Emelin Subban Diaz You also get 2 firsts and 2 seconds getting rid of the players i suggested. Is that line up far less better then the current one? I don't think it is. All the players who are producing are still on that roster with additional picks to make something happen. I do watch alot of hockey,not just the habs, i have seen good teams, the habs are just not one of them Injuries are definatley a reason, along with coaching decisions, underachievers, etc. Even when fully healthy i think they have too many of the same type of players. good teams don't have 3 similar centers. All i am saying is they have a chance to upgrade the roster. The thing that stands out right away for me is that Moen and Plek are both very high end penalty killers. Losing both of those would most certainly hurt the PK. I do agree that with DD coming into the fold and Gallagher as our best propect, we need to lose a few midgets somewhere. Unfortunately I would waiger that the one to go would be DD. He would cost less for other GMs in terms of return as well as dollars. I would really like to see DD get another year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Commandant, I'm not sure how making some moves getting rid of underachievers is decemating the team for next year. Let's say as an example they can get rid of some of the players i said and get a decent legit return. Clowe Gomez Gionta Pacs DD Cole Torres type player Eller Gallagher Griity two way forward who kills penalties( Leblanc or Nokeleinen) with white Markov Gorges' Kaberle get a stay at home defenseman likea gleason Emelin Subban Diaz You also get 2 firsts and 2 seconds getting rid of the players i suggested. Is that line up far less better then the current one? I don't think it is. All the players who are producing are still on that roster with additional picks to make something happen. I do watch alot of hockey,not just the habs, i have seen good teams, the habs are just not one of them Injuries are definatley a reason, along with coaching decisions, underachievers, etc. Even when fully healthy i think they have too many of the same type of players. good teams don't have 3 similar centers. All i am saying is they have a chance to upgrade the roster. Gomez is your #1 Centre... what makes you think thats a good idea? Even at his best in Montreal, he's been a number 2. Which of those forwards kills penalties. That team has 0 chance of the playoffs from the get go, even if they stay healthy, they won't score enough goals. In that lineup you are also going to overtax Eller as he would be the only line capable of matching up against other team's offensive units. I really think that is a lottery team, even with a relatively healthy season and good coaching. In fact it looks a lot like those 1999-2001 era habs teams. A major, major problem of this team is that we have a number 1 centre in Plekanec, and then 3 guys who at this point in their careers are third liners in Gomez, DD, and Eller. Gomez hasn't looked like a 2nd liner since the spring of 2010. DD just is much better suited to a bottom line role, bringing some extra offence in easier matchups. and Eller is progressing but not a true #2 yet. Getting rid of the number 1 guy and asking those three to be 1,2,3 is suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Commandant, I'm not sure how making some moves getting rid of underachievers is decemating the team for next year. Let's say as an example they can get rid of some of the players i said and get a decent legit return. Clowe Gomez Gionta Pacs DD Cole Torres type player Eller Gallagher Griity two way forward who kills penalties( Leblanc or Nokeleinen) with white Markov Gorges' Kaberle get a stay at home defenseman likea gleason Emelin Subban Diaz You also get 2 firsts and 2 seconds getting rid of the players i suggested. Is that line up far less better then the current one? I don't think it is. All the players who are producing are still on that roster with additional picks to make something happen. I do watch alot of hockey,not just the habs, i have seen good teams, the habs are just not one of them Injuries are definatley a reason, along with coaching decisions, underachievers, etc. Even when fully healthy i think they have too many of the same type of players. good teams don't have 3 similar centers. All i am saying is they have a chance to upgrade the roster. yes the team is way worse then this seasons addition.. -we have the #1 PK now you just took away our first wave of Pker's in plex and moen -torres is not even close to being as good as AK -clowe is not a 1st liner you have LeBlanc on the 4th line just to name but a few i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I hate to break it to you, the current team doesn't score enough goals. They have been bottom 5 for the past 3 years. You don't think Gallegher can muster up 35-40 points? AK46 pace. On what NHL team besides the habs is Pleks a number 1 center? I said a player like torres, he did score 20 plus goals, hits, fights, etc. I don't think Gomez is a number 1 center, i don't think the habs have one. Pleks vanishes when the going gets tough. Like it or not since Gomez arrived they made to the eastern finals, game 7 last year, and a number 6 seed. he is a winner. Something Pleks and company never did before he arrived. I'm not stupid, goaltending is the reason this team did what it did over the past 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I hate to break it to you, the current team doesn't score enough goals. They have been bottom 5 for the past 3 years. Agreed, and you've made it weaker... not stronger. Explain how that makes sense. You don't think Gallegher can muster up 35-40 points? AK46 pace. No I don't like relying on 20 year old guys straight out of junior with 0 AHL time and say they will immediately be 40 pt players... not unless they are a Nugent Hopkins or someone special like that. Hes good but Development isn't linear, and he might need AHL time as well, just look at Pacioretty for an example of a guy who needs time.... Lars Eller is another... On what NHL team besides the habs is Pleks a number 1 center? On many.... Pleks is a 70 pt guy, who the Habs exhaust because he's all we have. Get him some support and he'll do a lot more. He has to be on the number 1 PK unit. He has to match up against everyone else's top line and top D pair. While doing this, he has to cover for less than perfect wingers defensively like Cammalleri. He has to take every key faceoff for this team. What we needs is a true compliment to him and his role, not to remove him and hope Gomez can do the role. I said a player like torres, he did score 20 plus goals, hits, fights, etc. Torres hasn't scored 20 goals since 2005-2006. Looks like a one year aberation to me. He's on pace for 12 this year. I don't think Gomez is a number 1 center, i don't think the habs have one. Pleks vanishes when the going gets tough. Like it or not since Gomez arrived they made to the eastern finals, game 7 last year, and a number 6 seed. he is a winner. Something Pleks and company never did before he arrived. And that was all because of Gomez? Yes Gomez was good in the 2010 playoffs, but you'll notice which centre took nearly every shift against Crosby was Plekanec. Pleks had heavy defensive responsibilities in those playoffs. Last year, Gomez didn't help us to the number 6 seed. He was more a liability than an asset for this team. And pleks has outscored Gomez in each of their three seasons together. Dumping Pleks instead of Gomez, makes us weaker, no doubt about that in my mind. I'm not stupid, goaltending is the reason this team did what it did over the past 2 years. Sure it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I still don't get why you guys want to sneak into the playoffs. I want to win the playoffs and if this isn't our year, lets build the team to dominate. Mediocrity has been tried for 15 years now.. it doesn't work. Boston, Philly, Pitts.. all spent time at the bottom and built a strong, young team to be serious contenders. Some people here seem fixated in being fodder in the first round of the playoffs, year after year. Forget whether this team can or can't make the playoffs. The questions is, is this team good enough? Is it big enough? Is it tough enough... TO WIN THE CUP!!!! I say no, so I hope they take the opportunity to adjust the team for the long term, not make short term trades to "sneak in" or complete for a round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm with you Brobin. Comandant, you are aware pleks is on pace for 60 points and minus 20. No reason to argue with you, i am of the belief the habs need to get younger, tougher and stronger. They have a chance to do that. Optimism is fine, but this team will not make the playoffs. No reason not to get younger and get more picks. They aren't that close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Ok, no trading away of young assets, but I want the team to go as hard as possible to make playoffs. We took the champs to game seven OT last year, and I believe we're better with Cole. What if we face the Rangers? If I recall, doesn't Lundqvist have ordinary numbers against us? The point is to get in, once you're in, anything can happen. Thankfully, I believe the organization thinks this way. You start to sound like Leaf fans, when you suggest that the only way to improve is to suck. That's not an exact science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I still don't get why you guys want to sneak into the playoffs. I want to win the playoffs and if this isn't our year, lets build the team to dominate. Mediocrity has been tried for 15 years now.. it doesn't work. Boston, Philly, Pitts.. all spent time at the bottom and built a strong, young team to be serious contenders. Some people here seem fixated in being fodder in the first round of the playoffs, year after year. Forget whether this team can or can't make the playoffs. The questions is, is this team good enough? Is it big enough? Is it tough enough... TO WIN THE CUP!!!! I say no, so I hope they take the opportunity to adjust the team for the long term, not make short term trades to "sneak in" or complete for a round. I always forget Boston picking Kessell 5th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I totally agree. Comparing Torres to ak46 is like comparing a ford festiva to a BMW. Torres is a 4th liner who ow has a target because of his cheap shots. t yes the team is way worse then this seasons addition.. -we have the #1 PK now you just took away our first wave of Pker's in plex and moen -torres is not even close to being as good as AK -clowe is not a 1st liner you have LeBlanc on the 4th line just to name but a few i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 why does everybody think tanking is the way to the stanley cup??? pittsburgh and chicago!! 2 teams who tanked for ever and finally came out on top and thats it! we dont need to tank to be contenders... right now with this team we need our veteran "stars" to be just that our veteran stars!!! and our kids to continue exactly what there doing only then will we be able to contend!!! plus you cant forget that goal song!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I always forget Boston picking Kessell 5th Boston had another high pick and picked Zach Hamil 7th. Columbus has averaged a pick at #5 since they joined the league. They have 2 successful picks in that time Tyutin and Nash. though the jury is out on Johannsen. There are no guarantees. My preference is 1) Playoffs 2) High Pick. I'd rather be last than 9th, but I'd rather be in the playoffs if I can. Because I look at this team and I say the only way we make the playoffs is with Subban, Eller, Emelin, Patches, and other young players continuing to contribute at a very high level, and i think that is good for the future too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm with you Brobin. Comandant, you are aware pleks is on pace for 60 points and minus 20. No reason to argue with you, i am of the belief the habs need to get younger, tougher and stronger. They have a chance to do that. Optimism is fine, but this team will not make the playoffs. No reason not to get younger and get more picks. They aren't that close. Yes, and my belief is that Plekanec would do much better if we had another centre to support him. He's proven what he can do in the past, and he didn't forget how to play hockey. He's still the best centre on this team, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Columbus has averaged a pick at #5 since they joined the league. They have 2 successful picks in that time Tyutin and Nash. though the jury is out on Johannsen. Tyutin wasn't a Columbus pick. He was acquired for Nikolai Zherdev (there were other lesser pieces involved too) who interestingly enough, was one of their bust picks at #4. So that basically leaves one good pick and one could be good pick to show for their efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 why does everybody think tanking is the way to the stanley cup??? pittsburgh and chicago!! 2 teams who tanked for ever and finally came out on top and thats it! we dont need to tank to be contenders... right now with this team we need our veteran "stars" to be just that our veteran stars!!! and our kids to continue exactly what there doing only then will we be able to contend!!! plus you cant forget that goal song!!! I am not suggesting tanking. I am suggesting being a seller who dumps the guys who are not going to help in a year or two (end of contracts, too old, too expensive), and getting back assets for the near future. I am talking about not trying to hold on to Gill so that we can make a run. A real contender might give us a decent pick or prospect because Gill is worth it for their run (PK specialist). Same for a few other guys. You do not have to be at the bottom for 5 years to win a cup, nor is it a guarantee. You do have to be smart about being a buyer or a seller at the deadline. We should be sellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 the Habs are a LONG way from out of the playoff picture! the way I see it - they need to end the season in 3rd place in their division - basically passing 2 of Toronto, Buffalo & Ottawa. that's not unrealistic since Toronto is only 8 points ahead with 41 games left! this is very surmountable. not easily surmountable, but very. we dont need to rent players or have a firesale. only player who could move is Kostitsyn if he can't be resigned. beyond that, it's a fine team that SHOULD still be able to squeak into the playoffs without major adjustments. Yes, because the playoffs are still within reach, I think Gauthier's choice of direction will depend largely on what options are left on the table. Supposing we could quantify the overall helpfulness of a trade on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a horrible trade and 10 is a steal, and typical trades fall in the 6-7 range, I think Gauthier could either: - Become a seller if the best "buyer trades" are 6s and the best "seller trade" is an 8. - Become a buyer if the best seller trades are significantly worse than the best buyer trades. - Stand pat if there is nothing interesting out there. This might seem obvious but I don't think it represents the mindset of the majority of GMs going into the trade deadline, many of whom have already made up their mind about whether they are looking to sell off their expiring contracts or take a serious shot at making the playoffs. In contrast, the Canadiens management's path will be chosen for them by the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Tyutin wasn't a Columbus pick. He was acquired for Nikolai Zherdev (there were other lesser pieces involved too) who interestingly enough, was one of their bust picks at #4. So that basically leaves one good pick and one could be good pick to show for their efforts. You are right. I was thinking of Klesla. Who of course was traded to Phoenix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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