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May 5, Canadiens @ Senators, 7PM EST


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shit game.

 

Meanwhile the Sens are 7-1-1 in their last 9 games, ruining their draft position after being eliminated from the playoffs.  Feels like what the Leafs did for years from 2006-2014

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

Even at 20 yrs-old, a 3rd year, third overall pick, with "projected" 1/2C talent shouldn't need a rookie with 5 games under his belt to get him going ... 

unless that 20 year-old 3rd overall pick probably should also have been a rookie.

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10 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Funny ... that is what his wingers have been saying much of the season

Haha indeed, so sick of people acting like the team and teammates are holding him back.

Gonna be a decent two way, third line center who gets 40 points per season, maybe peak at 50 range. Not a team saviour, not an offensive threat, never was.

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10 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

Kotkaniemi - 20 points

Evans - 10 points

Lehkonen - 9 points

 

I'm not saying Kotkaniemi is leagues ahead, but he's clearly not the weak link here. 


Decent 4th line is what they are.

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10 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

Re-wound ... both Anderson and Caufield were around the board side of the left face-off circle in theOttawa zone as the puck left the zone and Caufield did not really hustle back ... in fact, CC took the time to glance up at the clock to check how much time was left ... whether he could have made it back to the mid-boards to to support Merrill (who had his back turned when he threw the pass), or to cover the left point who took the shot that Paul tipped (if that was his coverage), is an unknown.

And CC was the right winger who was nowhere near his position. Andy was LW so that was not his responsibility in the play.

no shame on CC other than loading on the back check.

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10 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

unless that 20 year-old 3rd overall pick probably should also have been a rookie.

I can't agree or disagree because I don't get your point ... are you saying he should be a rookie because he should have spent two seasons in Finland?  Laval?   

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

I can't agree or disagree because I don't get your point ... are you saying he should be a rookie because he should have spent two seasons in Finland?  Laval?   

 

I believe that is his point.  And while someone drafted 3rd overall shouldn't need two years of work in the minors and the weightroom to be an effective rookie (see Tkachuk, Hughes), Kotkaniemi sure did/does.  Not that I'm saying that course of action would have made him viable as a top 6 center, as the talent level he has shown looks well short of that, but he'd be a solid and consistently producing 3rd line center perhaps.

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1 minute ago, sbhatt said:

I believe that is his point.  And while someone drafted 3rd overall shouldn't need two years of work in the minors and the weightroom to be an effective rookie (see Tkachuk, Hughes), Kotkaniemi sure did/does.  Not that I'm saying that course of action would have made him viable as a top 6 center, as the talent level he has shown looks well short of that, but he'd be a solid and consistently producing 3rd line center perhaps.

 

In other words ... he should never have been drafted third overall

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Habs chose the youngest player of the draft at 3rd oa and knew they were not getting full potential before at least one more season than anyone else in this draft. 

 

Tkachuk was born ONE DAY too late from being eligible in the 2017 draft  while KK was born a few months away from being eligible in the 2019 draft.  

 

We should stop comparing Tkachuk and KK,  it was never fair.

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16 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Habs chose the youngest player of the draft at 3rd oa and knew they were not getting full potential before at least one more season than anyone else in this draft. 

 

Tkachuk was born ONE DAY too late from being eligible in the 2017 draft  while KK was born a few months away from being eligible in the 2019 draft.  

 

We should stop comparing Tkachuk and KK,  it was never fair.

 

The entire JOB of your head of scouting is to compare the guys in the draft...that's pretty much the whole point of their existence.  Ours failed to do so accurately.  If you want to be 'more fair' and compare KK this year to Tkachuk and Hughes last year, those guys are still better by a wide margin. 

 

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44 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Habs chose the youngest player of the draft at 3rd oa and knew they were not getting full potential before at least one more season than anyone else in this draft. 

 

Tkachuk was born ONE DAY too late from being eligible in the 2017 draft  while KK was born a few months away from being eligible in the 2019 draft.  

 

We should stop comparing Tkachuk and KK,  it was never fair.

I agree, and I like how the Habs are working with him so far 

 

He does not need to carry the team in his shoulder just yet. There is plenty of time for him to get better 

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I've been saying for some time that I doubt KK projects to become a productive top-6 C. He seems more a prototypical 3rd-line C.

 

And YES. The way to properly develop a young kid is to let him marinade in the minors. Sure, there are exceptions (Crosby, Gallagher). But that should be the default position. It was ever thus. Absolutely no harm comes from having a guy learn the finer points of the game and develop his identity as a pro in the minors. Then when he comes up, he is both physically and psychologically ready for the rigours of the big league.

 

Whether or not the Habs erred in drafting him, they should not have brought him up so soon.

 

None of this is to say his fate is sealed. Maybe he'll take a jump at some point. Unfortunately, we'll never know what he could have been had he been handled properly.

 

I note we are now doing the same thing with CC (although at least we have the very reasonably excuse that the AHL team is closed down!). Hopefully he proves to be one of those exceptions.

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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

We should stop comparing Tkachuk and KK

 Is as likely as the Habs will hire an English GM & head coach this summer. Some still harping on Kostitsyn pick... and every super NHLer they didnt pick.:wall:

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15 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I've been saying for some time that I doubt KK projects to become a productive top-6 C. He seems more a prototypical 3rd-line C.

 

And YES. The way to properly develop a young kid is to let him marinade in the minors. Sure, there are exceptions (Crosby, Gallagher). But that should be the default position. It was ever thus. Absolutely no harm comes from having a guy learn the finer points of the game and develop his identity as a pro in the minors. Then when he comes up, he is both physically and psychologically ready for the rigours of the big league.

 

Whether or not the Habs erred in drafting him, they should not have brought him up so soon.

 

None of this is to say his fate is sealed. Maybe he'll take a jump at some point. Unfortunately, we'll never know what he could have been had he been handled properly.

 

I note we are now doing the same thing with CC (although at least we have the very reasonably excuse that the AHL team is closed down!). Hopefully he proves to be one of those exceptions.

 

How many non-NHL games did Brady Tkachuk play after being drafted? 

 

None

 

He started in the Sens bottom six and worked his way up the lineup.

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6 minutes ago, DON said:

 Is as likely as the Habs will hire an English GM & head coach this summer. Some still harping on Kostitsyn pick... and every super NHLer they didnt pick.:wall:

 

It would be easier to take if the Habs were able to grab an elite talent in the first round once in a while, FFS. It hasn't happened since they got MacDonagh and Patches in 2007 (!) - unless we consider Sergachev an elite talent, which won't make anyone feel any better.

 

Maybe Caulfield will buck the trend of first-round disappointment. Let's hope.

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6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

OK - let's just close down the farm system, then, since clearly it serves no developmental purpose 🙄

The point is that each player is different. 

 

Lets not jump to conclusions that Caufield (who is two years older and played two extra years of NCAA hockey that KK and Tkachuk didn't play) is being rushed here and this will ruin his development.

 

Caufield is basically on the same trajectory that Gallagher took.... played two additional years after being drafted and then made the big club.  Seemed to work out for him.

 

But after 6 games and two big goals (and the best advanced stats on the entire team in those 6 games), we are assuming Caufield isn't ready.  Why?

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Just now, Commandant said:

The point is that each player is different. 

 

Lets not jump to conclusions that Caufield (who is two years older and played two extra years of NCAA hockey that KK and Tkachuk didn't play) is being rushed here and this will ruin his development.

 

No, no - I agree that sometimes it can work. But I really believe that, as with most things, following a patient path upward through the system is better than just throwing people into the deep end.

 

The point is that KK is a 3rd overall pick who right now appears to be on a path to becoming a 40-point 3rd-line C, and that that was NOT the expectation when he was drafted. Assuming no substantial leap in his performance is in the cards, then either the Habs blew the pick, or they mishandled his development by bringing him up to soon. Neither is a good look.

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I don't know that KK is on that path.  He's 20 years old.  There is plenty of time for him to break out and be more than that. 

 

The difference between KK and Eller is this. 

 

Eller's rookie season is the same age as what KK will be when next season starts. 

 

So I don't know why we assume no substantial leap could be in the cards.  Eller could have had that leap and it didn't happen.... KK is just now reaching the age where he also could have that leap. 

There are numerous cases of guys who don't score a lot at 20, breaking out at 22 or 23... thats the age I'd start worrying about him. 

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14 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I don't know that KK is on that path.  He's 20 years old.  There is plenty of time for him to break out and be more than that. 

 

The difference between KK and Eller is this. 

 

Eller's rookie season is the same age as what KK will be when next season starts. 

 

So I don't know why we assume no substantial leap could be in the cards.  Eller could have had that leap and it didn't happen.... KK is just now reaching the age where he also could have that leap. 

There are numerous cases of guys who don't score a lot at 20, breaking out at 22 or 23... thats the age I'd start worrying about him. 

Also, I think Kotkaniemi will probably be at least as good as Danault 

 

Daunault in Chicago did not have as good stats as KK so far

 

KK has more upside and if he becomes as good as Danault Inwill be ok with that; but I expect KK to be better

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4 hours ago, GHT120 said:

I can't agree or disagree because I don't get your point ... are you saying he should be a rookie because he should have spent two seasons in Finland?  Laval?   

Yes. I thought he should have stayed in Finland the first year and than spent at least started the second year in Laval.

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2 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

I believe that is his point.  And while someone drafted 3rd overall shouldn't need two years of work in the minors and the weightroom to be an effective rookie (see Tkachuk, Hughes), Kotkaniemi sure did/does.  Not that I'm saying that course of action would have made him viable as a top 6 center, as the talent level he has shown looks well short of that, but he'd be a solid and consistently producing 3rd line center perhaps.

At the time the consensus was that Tkachuk was the most NHL ready physically. Hughes had the skill, but still spent the year dominating and developing in college. 
KK still looks like he hasn’t developed into his body the summer he is always falling. 
He should have been in Finland the first year and than you ease him in in the second year if he is ready.

 

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2 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

The entire JOB of your head of scouting is to compare the guys in the draft...that's pretty much the whole point of their existence.  Ours failed to do so accurately.  If you want to be 'more fair' and compare KK this year to Tkachuk and Hughes last year, those guys are still better by a wide margin. 

 

Th he job of the scouts is project what the player will be in the NHL. The older the player is the better chance is making the right decision.  Unless it’s a special mcDavid  type player available, if want more data and see the player more. Habs made the same type of decision on Kostitsyn, who had health issues, that scared off teams, they got cute and projected him to be better than Getzlaf, Parise and others. I hope we don’t look back at the KK draft the same way 3 years from now - that is still time, but his draft position doesn’t guarantee anything.   

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