titanfan Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, titanfan said: Depressing stat of the day. Over the last 5 full seasons (I didn't bother to check last year since it was a shortened season) (so dating back to 2015-16) The ONLY time the Habs had a 70-point player was Max Domi in 2018-19 when he managed 72 points. The only teams who didn't (and most had mutliple players in multiple seasons) were Arizona and Nashville. The lack of offense this century! Let's go back to 1999-2000 These are the ONLY 70 point seasons for the Habs 2018-19 -Domi - 72 points 2009-10 - Plekanec -70 points 2007-08 - Kovalev - 84 points 2006-07 - Koivu - 75 points 2002-03 - Koivu - 71 points That is 5 - over the last 20 years. Only one over 80 and only Koivu did it more than once. The odds of being that BAD offensively are amazing. The truth is - if you are a Habs fan - you love low scoring games and pray for an amazing goaltender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 11 minutes ago, titanfan said: The truth is - if you are a Habs fan - you love low scoring games and pray for an amazing goaltender. But this is what is going to happen if you spend $10M+ of your cap space on a goalie. It should not be a surprise. P.S. Toffoli was on an about-70-point-pace last year. What will he do this year with Suzuki and Caufield? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanfan Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 12 minutes ago, tomh009 said: But this is what is going to happen if you spend $10M+ of your cap space on a goalie. It should not be a surprise. P.S. Toffoli was on an about-70-point-pace last year. What will he do this year with Suzuki and Caufield? That only accounts for the last two seasons of this exercise. No other team has had this long a drought of top scoring talent on their team. Again, no matter the reason - the Habs have not had a real offensive talent in over 20 years. Even the Devils with Brodeur had more offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 42 minutes ago, titanfan said: The lack of offense this century! Let's go back to 1999-2000 These are the ONLY 70 point seasons for the Habs 2018-19 -Domi - 72 points 2009-10 - Plekanec -70 points 2007-08 - Kovalev - 84 points 2006-07 - Koivu - 75 points 2002-03 - Koivu - 71 points That is 5 - over the last 20 years. Only one over 80 and only Koivu did it more than once. The odds of being that BAD offensively are amazing. The truth is - if you are a Habs fan - you love low scoring games and pray for an amazing goaltender. I agree with you, but I can't help making a pedantic point: going by team scoring leader totals doesn't prove the team is low scoring, necessarily. If you have 10 guys getting 65 points, you're a pretty effective offensive team. A more convincing metric would be the team's overall goals-scored totals annually, compared to the rest of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 1 hour ago, DON said: ... When will a 90-100pt player actually suit up in a Hab jersey? When Stephane Richer next plays in an old-timers game? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 9 minutes ago, GHT120 said: When Stephane Richer next plays in an old-timers game? This forced a visit to hockeydb for me. I questioned whether Richer had hit the 90 point mark, as I don't remember him registering a ton of assists. Sure enough, he hit 91 points during the 89-90 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, sbhatt said: This forced a visit to hockeydb for me. I questioned whether Richer had hit the 90 point mark, as I don't remember him registering a ton of assists. Sure enough, he hit 91 points during the 89-90 season. 30+yrs ago and he still wasnt in the top 20 scorers. 85-86 was when the last Hab (Naslund) was in the top ten in NHL scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: ... A more convincing metric would be the team's overall goals-scored totals annually, compared to the rest of the league. This century, the Habs have been in the top 10 twice ... in 2012-13 the were fourth, sandwiched between seasons of 19th and 21st ... and another blip in 2007/08 (2nd, between seasons of 15th and 13th) ... in those 20 years the Habs are 18th in goals scored ... pushed to 19th using goals/season because Vegas passes them (although not a fair metric as Vegas could go into the tank after the current roster moves on) ... so the lack of scoring has been an issue for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 34 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I agree with you, but I can't help making a pedantic point: going by team scoring leader totals doesn't prove the team is low scoring, necessarily. If you have 10 guys getting 65 points, you're a pretty effective offensive team. A more convincing metric would be the team's overall goals-scored totals annually, compared to the rest of the league. A good point. 10 years from 2009 to 2019 (skipping the COVID seasons), Pens and Caps averaged 240+ goals/season (243 and 240). The league median was 216 (Ducks). The Habs scored an average of 209, seven goals fewer than the Ducks. 2018-19 we scored 246, though, which was good for 13th overall, in a generally high-scoring season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 14 minutes ago, sbhatt said: This forced a visit to hockeydb for me. I questioned whether Richer had hit the 90 point mark, as I don't remember him registering a ton of assists. Sure enough, he hit 91 points during the 89-90 season. I did something similar ... thought about Damphousse, Larouche, Smith or Muller but Stephane was the only one I was certain has been playing with the old-timers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 1 hour ago, tomh009 said: But this is what is going to happen if you spend $10M+ of your cap space on a goalie. It should not be a surprise. P.S. Toffoli was on an about-70-point-pace last year. What will he do this year with Suzuki and Caufield? I wouldn’t put stick in a 70 point pace for a a shortened season. Kjel Dahlin was on an 80+ point pace as a rookie with the habs, through the first few months a couple of years ago, Laine was an a 70 or 80 goal pace. The NHL season is a grind. You need a full season to be able to see if a guy is actually capable of putting up 70-80 points. ineint see anyone this year - who knows Taffoli may surprise. I do think that Suzuki amd Caufield certainly have that potential. I doubt if it will be this year though. Offense starts from the Defense, and as I’ve been saying for the last few years, our D is crap. Part of the issue of not being able to generate offense, is the inability to get out of your zone. That was part of the problem. The PP was the other. Not sure if the habs will ever learns and sustain a strategy that doesn’t revolve around setting up a dman from the point. I think we have the talent to have a much better PP than what was on display last night. Maybe to stop them from setting up the blast from the point as the go to option, you go with 5 forwards. It can’t as bad as it was last night!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 49 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I agree with you, but I can't help making a pedantic point: going by team scoring leader totals doesn't prove the team is low scoring, necessarily. If you have 10 guys getting 65 points, you're a pretty effective offensive team. A more convincing metric would be the team's overall goals-scored totals annually, compared to the rest of the league. Agreed. But you need to have better dmen. You can’t have Petry and a bunch of redwoods on the blueline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 15 minutes ago, DON said: 30+yrs ago and he still wasnt in the top 20 scorers. 85-86 was when the last Hab (Naslund) was in the top ten in NHL scoring. Well we did have I think three 90 point guys on the 92-93 cup team. But it’s been a black hole for offence since than! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 38 minutes ago, GHT120 said: When Stephane Richer next plays in an old-timers game? We had Eric Staal, and Corey Perry last year. We had Kovalchuk the year before, if you want to include guys who are 90 point scorers but not now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Commandant said: We had Eric Staal, and Corey Perry last year. We had Kovalchuk the year before, if you want to include guys who are 90 point scorers but not now. good point. Did Rechi or Leclair reach 90 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 42 minutes ago, Commandant said: We had Eric Staal, and Corey Perry last year. We had Kovalchuk the year before, if you want to include guys who are 90 point scorers but not now. I restricted myself to players who has 90+ with the Habs ... and the response was (I thought obviously) tongue-in-cheek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said: Well we did have I think three 90 point guys on the 92-93 cup team. But it’s been a black hole for offence since than! Damphousse top Hab, just 24th in the NHL (didnt make all-star lineup neither). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Commandant said: We had Eric Staal, and Corey Perry last year. We had Kovalchuk the year before, if you want to include guys who are 90 point scorers but not now. Last year I was thinking about the Habs and the last time they had a 40 goal scorer, and I had that exact same thought. All 3 of those guys were 40 goal scorers at 1 point. In a sense I tend to think that its probably better for a team to have more 20+ g guys than one 40 g guy. i.e. when a team has a 40 g scorer it can become easy for the other team to shut them down - they just need to double team the 40 g guy. i.e. its much harder to stop a team where almost any player can put the puck into an open net. That makes it a lot harder for the other team to predict who the shooter will be. I feel that's a big part of the Leafs current problem. i.e. the opted to get Tavares, who is great, but they had to dump numerous positive value guys to fit him under the cap. Ultimately, I think they would have been better off keeping those positive value guys and not getting Tavares. Ironically, having star players that make 10+ mil/yr can be a hindrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 7 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Last year I was thinking about the Habs and the last time they had a 40 goal scorer, and I had that exact same thought. All 3 of those guys were 40 goal scorers at 1 point. In a sense I tend to think that its probably better for a team to have more 20+ g guys than one 40 g guy. i.e. when a team has a 40 g scorer it can become easy for the other team to shut them down - they just need to double team the 40 g guy. i.e. its much harder to stop a team where almost any player can put the puck into an open net. That makes it a lot harder for the other team to predict who the shooter will be. I feel that's a big part of the Leafs current problem. i.e. the opted to get Tavares, who is great, but they had to dump numerous positive value guys to fit him under the cap. Ultimately, I think they would have been better off keeping those positive value guys and not getting Tavares. Ironically, having star players that make 10+ mil/yr can be a hindrance. This is the whole reason the Oilers ride or die with McDavid. I hear all the time what a great player Draisatl is, yet the vast majority of his points are linked to McDavid. Jets shut down McDavid last playoffs, and swept the Oilers. Habs had 4 lines producing inconsistently during the playoffs, which lead to an overall consistent offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 16 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: This is the whole reason the Oilers ride or die with McDavid. I hear all the time what a great player Draisatl is, yet the vast majority of his points are linked to McDavid. Jets shut down McDavid last playoffs, and swept the Oilers. Habs had 4 lines producing inconsistently during the playoffs, which lead to an overall consistent offense. Draisaitl is a hell of a player and can score without McDavid (and has). He's a legit top 5 C in the league and they often play apart at ES and together on the PP. The Oilers issue is that their roster is just shit... and its not cause how much McDavid, Draisaitl and Nugent Hopkins make either. Mike Smith and Mikko Koskinen are 6.7 million in net, and not very good. Cody Ceci 3.25 Duncan Keith 5.5 million Darnell Nurse (9.25 million starting next season) Thats a ton of overpayments on a defence that is really shitty, and goalies who are also shit. Then you have dead cap in Lucic (750k), Neal (1.9 million), Sekera (1.5 million) Klefbom was a key to their defence but his long term injuries really hurt. He was a great d on only 4.1 million and now he can't play. Then what do they have at wing.... Hyman is overpaid.... Puljujarvi and Yamamoto I like. But after them, its pretty barren in terms of offence and they are paying Kassian 3.2 million for some reason. This is how you totally mismanage a team with the best player in the league, another top 5 Centre, and an excellent two-way centre as your top 3. That should be the building blocks of a Tampa Bay like team, but instead they are very very average. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 40 minutes ago, Commandant said: Draisaitl is a hell of a player and can score without McDavid (and has). He's a legit top 5 C in the league and they often play apart at ES and together on the PP. The Oilers issue is that their roster is just shit... and its not cause how much McDavid, Draisaitl and Nugent Hopkins make either. Mike Smith and Mikko Koskinen are 6.7 million in net, and not very good. Cody Ceci 3.25 Duncan Keith 5.5 million Darnell Nurse (9.25 million starting next season) Thats a ton of overpayments on a defence that is really shitty, and goalies who are also shit. Then you have dead cap in Lucic (750k), Neal (1.9 million), Sekera (1.5 million) Klefbom was a key to their defence but his long term injuries really hurt. He was a great d on only 4.1 million and now he can't play. Then what do they have at wing.... Hyman is overpaid.... Puljujarvi and Yamamoto I like. But after them, its pretty barren in terms of offence and they are paying Kassian 3.2 million for some reason. This is how you totally mismanage a team with the best player in the league, another top 5 Centre, and an excellent two-way centre as your top 3. That should be the building blocks of a Tampa Bay like team, but instead they are very very average. I wasn’t pointing it out as a cap issue, I was pointing it out as how the result of McDavid’s offense is directly related to the teams performance more so than any other team with a superstar. I will agree with you Draisatl is a good player, he isn’t a superstar capable of driving his own line. Many, many games, with multiple coaches Draisatl has cetered RNH and a 3rd player and has produced nothing. Many games he had different wingers and produced nothing. Then he gets thrown on a couple PPs with McDavid and he ends up with multiple point games. They pair McDavid with Draisatl and he scores in bunches. I’m not saying Draisatl isn’t capable of scoring, I’m saying confidently, without McDavid, Draisatl is a 60 point guy. Circa Chris Kunitz and Sidney Crosby. Draisatl is still better than Kunitz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 55 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: I wasn’t pointing it out as a cap issue, I was pointing it out as how the result of McDavid’s offense is directly related to the teams performance more so than any other team with a superstar. I will agree with you Draisatl is a good player, he isn’t a superstar capable of driving his own line. Many, many games, with multiple coaches Draisatl has cetered RNH and a 3rd player and has produced nothing. Many games he had different wingers and produced nothing. Then he gets thrown on a couple PPs with McDavid and he ends up with multiple point games. They pair McDavid with Draisatl and he scores in bunches. I’m not saying Draisatl isn’t capable of scoring, I’m saying confidently, without McDavid, Draisatl is a 60 point guy. Circa Chris Kunitz and Sidney Crosby. Draisatl is still better than Kunitz. A better comparison for McDavid and Draisaitl, is Crosby snd Malkin. Even mentioning Draisaitl in the same breath as Kunitz is a gross insult to Draisaitl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 i don't see the times draisaitl hasnt produced. he always has, even on his own line The issue isn't those two, its the crap around them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 5 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said: Agreed. But you need to have better dmen. You can’t have Petry and a bunch of redwoods on the blueline. You and I have been banging this drum for a while. Although to be fair, the run to the Finals with those redwoods does suggest the Habs are onto a model that can be surprisingly effective, at least in the playoffs. Nevertheless, the model looked decidedly suspect in the later rounds, and with Weber replaced by Savard, it will be even less effective overall. We’re built like a 1950s team. Forwards score, defencemen defend. But without puck-moving D, the forwards arguably are handicapped relative to their peers on other teams, who have the benefit of offensive push from the back end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 16 minutes ago, Commandant said: i don't see the times draisaitl hasnt produced. he always has, even on his own line The issue isn't those two, its the crap around them. Agree. Chiarelli was a horrible GM, who looks like he will eventually get another shot, but the game has clearly passed Holland by. H was horrible at the end of his tenure with the Red Wings and he has been horrible in Edmonton. The best move he has made (or didn’t make), was not trading Puljujarvi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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