2022-23 NHL Discussion Thread

[tomh009]

I don't think their chances would be any better than Quebec's, though.

[DON]

Maybe these guys will be back, instead of the Whalers?

[Helmethead]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

THAT is from out of left-field.

As someone who’s been living in Connecticut for the last 14 years I can GUARANTEE you there is no chance in hell that the NHL would consider putting a team at the XL center in Hartford of all places. 

Costs the governor nothing to spew such bullshit. 
 

 

[Helmethead]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

THAT is from out of left-field.

As someone who’s been living in Connecticut for the last 14 years I can GUARANTEE you there is no chance in hell that the NHL would consider putting a team at the XL center in Hartford of all places. 

Costs the governor nothing to spew such bullshit. 
 

 

[Commandant]

Leafs should hire Bergy and Ducharme.

 

They did something the.leafs havent done since.the 1930s, win 3 playoff rounds in the same year.

 

Also any coach who can shut down the biggest offensive threat on your biggest rival is invaluable. Ducharme is the best at preventing cole caufield from scoring.

[tomh009]

6 hours ago, Commandant said:

Also any coach who can shut down the biggest offensive threat on your biggest rival is invaluable. Ducharme is the best at preventing cole caufield from scoring.

😂 😂 😂

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

8 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

 

Also any coach who can shut down the biggest offensive threat on your biggest rival is invaluable. Ducharme is the best at preventing cole caufield from scoring.

 

🤣

 

It’s a funny thing, too…despite the Leafs rebuilding properly according to the Tank and Rebuild Playbook, the Habs have been to the Semi-Finals three times in 13 seasons, went to the Finals once, and got to the Second Round two additional times…meanwhile the Leafs’ big achievement has been a single round won. 

 

Thus far the Habs’ “improper” approach to team building has yielded considerably more success 🤷‍♂️

[GHT120]

44 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

🤣

 

It’s a funny thing, too…despite the Leafs rebuilding properly according to the Tank and Rebuild Playbook, the Habs have been to the Semi-Finals three times in 13 seasons, went to the Finals once, and got to the Second Round two additional times…meanwhile the Leafs’ big achievement has been a single round won. 

 

Thus far the Habs’ “improper” approach to team building has yielded considerably more success 🤷‍♂️

 

Why 13 years?

The Leaves tank started in 2014/15 for Matthews in the 2016 draft ... so the 2016/17 season was the start of their rebuild ... since then the Habs missed the playoffs 4 times, lost in the first round twice (once after the NHL created a play-in to include the 23rd and 24th placed Canadiens and Blackhawks, who just happened to be MAJOR media markets, as a "pay back" to their TV partners) and had the crazy Covid-season run to the Finals ... other than beating the Leaves in the playoffs not much to lord over them IMO ... it has been soooooo long since I felt the Habs were legit Cup contenders entering the season ... I badly miss that feeling.

 

As a child of the 8 Cups in 12 seasons, 1968-79 Habs ... my measure of success is Cups, not playoff rounds ... of course the Habs "make the playoffs and pray" approach that has been in place for more than two decades depends on the latter being enough.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

16 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

Why 13 years?

The Leaves tank started in 2014/15 for Matthews in the 2016 draft ... so the 2016/17 season was the start of their rebuild ... since then the Habs missed the playoffs 4 times, lost in the first round twice (once after the NHL created a play-in to include the 23rd and 24th placed Canadiens and Blackhawks, who just happened to be MAJOR media markets, as a "pay back" to their TV partners) and had the crazy Covid-season run to the Finals ... other than beating the Leaves in the playoffs not much to lord over them IMO ... it has been soooooo long since I felt the Habs were legit Cup contenders entering the season ... I badly miss that feeling.

 

As a child of the 8 Cups in 12 seasons, 1968-79 Habs ... my measure of success is Cups, not playoff rounds ... of course the "make the playoffs and pray" approach in place for more than two decades depends on the latter.

 

Well, even if we go back to the lockout year, the Habs have had vastly more playoff success than Toronto. That is an amusing fact to bandy about in itself.

 

I agree with you about the Habs not being heavy-duty contenders, though, obviously. Although one point of note is that a good case can be made that we *were* contenders in 2014 (Semi-Finals) and 2015 (2nd overall). We just didn’t understand that at the time. Why we didn’t appreciate this, is a good question. Probably we were bedazzled by the lack of a stud #1C and couldn’t see that a team with peak Subban, Petry, and Markov, backed by Price, had a lot going for it.

 

I’m on board with the current Habs rebuild, BUT the Leafs nightmare is just one more exhibit illustrating that tanking is not a guarantee of winning anything. ُThe admirable 2014/2015 Habs team, meanwhile, shows that tanking is not necessary. Hell, if we had kept McDonagh, we might well have beaten Tampa in 2015.

 

Meanwhile, the subtle re-writing of history so that the Habs run of 2021 “doesn’t count” is sheer revisionism. I’m not having this BS for one second. That was a heavy, grinding team with tremendous veteran leadership - built for the playoffs. In fact, if they hadn’t had bizarre problems winning at 4-on-4, they might well have been regarded as contenders for the whole season. They were full value for destroying both the supposedly-mighty Leafs and Vegas; meanwhile, Winnipeg’s best player self-destructed, so that was hardly our problem. That team quite closely resembled the LA Kings Cup winners In being a heavy team with an ace goalie that could grind out wins over the playoff meat-grinder.

 

What 2021 showed is that even the most flagrant patchup jobs can indeed succeed, if executed brilliantly. The problem, of course, was that it couldn’t be sustained. Danault left, Perry left, and most importantly Weber and Price were done. The whole thing collapsed, as it was destined to. 

[GHT120]

56 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... BUT the Leafs nightmare is just one more exhibit illustrating that tanking is not a guarantee of winning anything ...

 

 

NOBODY, despite your repeated claims, ever says tanking guarantees anything ... just that when done with foresight (e.g., not for poor or average drafts) it is the most likely means to acquire elite talent without having to depend on poor draft decisions by other teams.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

NOBODY, despite your repeated claims, ever says tanking guarantees anything ... just that when done with foresight (e.g., not for poor or average drafts) it is the most likely means to acquire elite talent without having to depend on poor draft decisions by other teams.

 

I can't believe I am entering this debate again but I have said many times that the term "tanking" is the most over used and wrongly used term on these forums. The wikipedia definition is below and is a definition I agree with.  I don' t think we have seen too many recent examples of "tanking" although the Chicago Black Hawks this year were one example of this as they just decided to clean house (thank you for Dach). I don't think the Leafs were "tanking" the year they were able to draft Mathews, they were just a bad team.  Montreal didn't "tank" the last couple years, they were just a bad team who had a lot of injuries.  

 

It annoys me when a bad team goes on a losing streak and someone on this forum will post that they are "tanking". No they are just a bad team not playing well.  There, my rant is over, I feel better now. 

 

"Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams."

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Well, even if we go back to the lockout year, the Habs have had vastly more playoff success than Toronto. That is an amusing fact to bandy about in itself.

 

I agree with you about the Habs not being heavy-duty contenders, though, obviously. Although one point of note is that a good case can be made that we *were* contenders in 2014 (Semi-Finals) and 2015 (2nd overall). We just didn’t understand that at the time. Why we didn’t appreciate this, is a good question. Probably we were bedazzled by the lack of a stud #1C and couldn’t see that a team with peak Subban, Petry, and Markov, backed by Price, had a lot going for it.

 

I’m on board with the current Habs rebuild, BUT the Leafs nightmare is just one more exhibit illustrating that tanking is not a guarantee of winning anything. ُThe admirable 2014/2015 Habs team, meanwhile, shows that tanking is not necessary. Hell, if we had kept McDonagh, we might well have beaten Tampa in 2015.

 

Meanwhile, the subtle re-writing of history so that the Habs run of 2021 “doesn’t count” is sheer revisionism. I’m not having this BS for one second. That was a heavy, grinding team with tremendous veteran leadership - built for the playoffs. In fact, if they hadn’t had bizarre problems winning at 4-on-4, they might well have been regarded as contenders for the whole season. They were full value for destroying both the supposedly-mighty Leafs and Vegas; meanwhile, Winnipeg’s best player self-destructed, so that was hardly our problem. That team quite closely resembled the LA Kings Cup winners In being a heavy team with an ace goalie that could grind out wins over the playoff meat-grinder.

 

What 2021 showed is that even the most flagrant patchup jobs can indeed succeed, if executed brilliantly. The problem, of course, was that it couldn’t be sustained. Danault left, Perry left, and most importantly Weber and Price were done. The whole thing collapsed, as it was destined to. 

That heavy grinding tram would not have gotten anywhere if Price (and Weber to a lesser extent) didn’t play like he knew it was probably his last kick at the can and he was done.  
 

I said at the start of the Canadian division season that it was the best chance a Canadian team had of winning the cup, because a Canadian team was gauranteed to get to the semi-finals. The habs had a chance because every Canadian team was flawed. Toronto and Winnipeg were on paper the best teams. Calgary and Edmonton next and than Montreal and Vancouver.  Ottawa sucked and were the only team that had zero chance. Vancouver was a mess. Calgary imploded, and that guy is in.
 

Everything went right for us that playoffs. Tavares out and the leafs were fragile. We lacked scoring, bit Caufield was finally allowed to play, and played a key role.  After a price got us back from thr 1-3 hike against the Leafs, I think Price and Weber also knew that this was their last chance and played like it. Next round the Jets imploded with Schieffle making a sick play and taking himself out of the series, and Hellebuyck wasn’t as close to Price.

 

Against Vegas, Price kept us in games, while Fleury played like the up-down unreliable Fleury, and we beat a highly favoured Vegas team on Price’s back.

 

I think we would have won the next round, if the Isles pulled the upset, but we were no match for Lightning.

 

I don’t take away anything from the cup run, but I do think it’s important to acknowledge that it was a unique situation. I don’t agree that Bergevin put together a gritty playoff team built for the playoffs.  Nor do I think we won b case he brought in a great coaching replacement l. heck, I’d also argue that DD getting Covid and the team chugging along also demonstrated that he was as much as a major part of the cup run as Perron was in 86’. losing DD probably helped the team at that point.
 

We got lucky that we were able to take advantage of our breaks, but that was largely due to two guys in Price and Weber who probably knew they were done, and sucked it up, gave everything they had, because they probably knew they were done and it was there last chance. But when we played Tampa, we played a real team that was built for the playoffs. We were a team that hung onto Price’s superman cape and let him carry us through. Weber knew he was done as well, and played with grit.

In 71’ Dryden had the Beliveau, pocket rocket, the road runner as a veteren leadership core and other very good players who went into be hall of famers. The team was stacked - The Mahovolich brothers, Houle, Lemaire, Lapointe, and Savard.

 

in 86’ Roy had Gainey, Robinson, Naslund, Smith, Walters, and Green as part of the leadership core. With solid young players, some would go on to be future hall of famer an and stars, and gritty guys who would win cups elsewhere in Chelios, Carbonneau, Lemieux, Skrudland, Svoboda.

 

In 2021 Price had nowhere near that kind of support. We were barely a playoff team. If MB built a true gritty cup winning team, we would have had guys like that surrounding Price to be a true contender. He didn’t have guys supporting him that were either past stars that knew how to win, and could help lead the team, or young guys that would play a key role.  Instead, he had Weber, who probably was only playing because he knew this was his last playoffs. You had Taffoli as really the only guy with a winning pedigree. Aside from that Danault was a solid player.

from that team, I think only Suzuki and Caufield have a chance to become legit superstars.   I also don’t see anyone from that team that will go on to play a major role on future cup winners. 
 

let’s call that run what it was Price playing like it was his last chance at the cup, it wasn’t because he brought in some grunt dmen. When Price and a Weber were gone the following year, we sucked and had the worst year of our franchise. I didn’t mind MB letting Danault walk, because I didn’t think he could have helped us. What really sucked was watching him waste the money he saved on Danault on Armia and Hoffman. If he was going to flush money down the toilet, h may have signed Danault to a long term deal.

 

I can’t believe the number of posts be seen going an about the great job MB did and the number of more playoff victories we had in comparison to the Leafs. Well we had more playoff victories then the leafs, from 2004 to 2011 before MB took over.

 

he came in with a core of Price, Markov, Pactioretty, plekanec, Subban, and Gallagher in the system, and did a shit poor job on building on that. Only high quality players he added were Danault, Petry, Taffoli, Suzuki and Caufield. 10 ####ing years and that was his legacy.

[hab29RETIRED]

41 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I can't believe I am entering this debate again but I have said many times that the term "tanking" is the most over used and wrongly used term on these forums. The wikipedia definition is below and is a definition I agree with.  I don' t think we have seen too many recent examples of "tanking" although the Chicago Black Hawks this year were one example of this as they just decided to clean house (thank you for Dach). I don't think the Leafs were "tanking" the year they were able to draft Mathews, they were just a bad team.  Montreal didn't "tank" the last couple years, they were just a bad team who had a lot of injuries.  

 

It annoys me when a bad team goes on a losing streak and someone on this forum will post that they are "tanking". No they are just a bad team not playing well.  There, my rant is over, I feel better now. 

 

"Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams."

Anaheim was tanking. Phoenix was tanking. Philly was tanking. When you are selling off assets and making your team worse they are tanking. Players aren’t tanking, the coaching staff isn’t tanking, but management is. Toronto tanked to get Matthews. Hell they were holding prospects back and bringing garbage players up from the minors instead. Buffalo tanked for McDavid, but ended up with Eichal.

 

 

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

Putting together Armia Staal Perry was genius... they played like a 2nd line in that run.. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Anaheim was tanking. Phoenix was tanking. Philly was tanking. When you are selling off assets and making your team worse they are tanking. Players aren’t tanking, the coaching staff isn’t tanking, but management is. Toronto tanked to get Matthews. Hell they were holding prospects back and bringing garbage players up from the minors instead. Buffalo tanked for McDavid, but ended up with Eichal.

 

 

 

There is a difference (in my mind anyway) between rebuilding and tanking. Sometimes the difference can be subtle.  I don't think you hire a John Tortorella to coach if you want to tank. 

[Peter Puck]

  It is silly to complain that the year we made it to the finals is somehow tainted because of the realignment that year due to covid.  It was unusual but we still won 3 rounds and got to the cup finals.

We were outplayed by the Lightning but we still had a chance to win it all.   

 

  Was Tampa's cup that year also tainted because of the unusual circumstances? 

 

  We played very well in the playoffs - probably better than any team other than Tampa and possibly the Islanders.  It was a great run and the fact that we relied on Price and Weber is no discredit.

 

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, Peter Puck said:

  It is silly to complain that the year we made it to the finals is somehow tainted because of the realignment that year due to covid.  It was unusual but we still won 3 rounds and got to the cup finals.

We were outplayed by the Lightning but we still had a chance to win it all.   

 

  Was Tampa's cup that year also tainted because of the unusual circumstances? 

 

  We played very well in the playoffs - probably better than any team other than Tampa and possibly the Islanders.  It was a great run and the fact that we relied on Price and Weber is no discredit.

 

First of all I’m not “complaining” about us making it to the final under Covid rules. I just don’t think you can give MB or DD credit. They win without DD  playoffs (just like the habs won a cup under an incompetent Perron in 86’). This was Price being superman, when it looked like he was done, and probably because he knew it was his last chance.

 

Secondly, Tampa, Toronto, Boston, Florida would have all made the playoffs easily. We wouldn’t have even made the playoffs. All of those teams were solid teams in 2020, 2021, 2022, and this year. We sucked in 2020, but got in under a play-in, in 2021 we got in because of realignment, and sucked in 2022 and 2023. No comparison at all. Tampa was a defending champion, and made the finals the following year as well, because they were a legit top team. We haven’t had a good team since  2016, and even then it was a yo-yo team. Good in 2014. Sucked in 2015, hood in 2016. Sucked since than.

[Commandant]

Yeah the team wouldnt have went anywhere in 2021 if Price and Weber werent playing great hockey.

 

This seems a redundant point though.

 

Show me the team that made Cup Final with their best two players playing like shit.

 

On almost every long playoff run, the 2 best players on the team play well.

 

A playoff run shouldnt be discounted and a GM's work discounted.cause the players he paid/acquired to be the best players on the team, actually were the best players.

[DON]

Watching Canada vs Swiss game.

One canadian playerJoe Valeno, 100% on purpose, stomped on the lower leg of a Swiss player, missed by officials, but holy f**k, what a stupid and dangerous play.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

12 hours ago, Commandant said:

Yeah the team wouldnt have went anywhere in 2021 if Price and Weber werent playing great hockey.

 

This seems a redundant point though.

 

Show me the team that made Cup Final with their best two players playing like shit.

 

On almost every long playoff run, the 2 best players on the team play well.

 

A playoff run shouldnt be discounted and a GM's work discounted.cause the players he paid/acquired to be the best players on the team, actually were the best players.

 

Well, exactly. Price was a franchise player and Weber was a franchise defenceman. Both were on their last legs, but gathered themselves for one final, stellar playoff run in which they played like they did in their primes. That “counts.”

 

As for the argument that we benefitted from the Canadian Division, well…a division is a division, and the team’s job is to get out of it. The Leafs were NOT an easy draw; they were a league-leading power. While Winnipeg was arguably an easy draw, VGK certainly were not. The Habs beat two legitimate contenders to reach the Finals. No one handed us anything.

 

And how come I never hear this “easy draw” argument applied to any other team? E.g., Carolina drew the Islanders and the Devils - one a non-contender, the other a talented but inexperienced bunch with sketchy netminding. Yet I haven’t heard anyone say that if they were to win the Cup it wouldn’t “count.”

 

Why is it always Habs teams that seem to get this dismissal, as if their playoff success doesn’t count somehow? How many times have I heard it said that the 1993 team was “the worst team ever to win,” that 10 straight OT wins showed they were “lucky,” or - worst of all- that “if it wasn’t for Roy, they never would have won.” No sh*t. And if it wasn’t for Messier, the Rags never would have won in ‘94. If it wasn’t for Mario or Crosby, the Pens would never have won. If it wasn’t for Mackinnon, the Avs never would have won. And on and on. Why is it only Habs’ stars who “don’t count?”

 

The 2021 team had a superb shutdown C, a bunch of behemoths on the back end, a nice mix of scoring and defending up front, lots of depth, considerable veteran experience, useful young players, and an ace goaltender.

 

They were full value for reaching the Finals. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

32 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

They were full value for reaching the Finals. 

 

Absolutely they were full value for reaching the final.  Vegas was tied for the lead league in points during the regular season and Toronto who was a legitimate Stanley Cup Contender was only 5 points behind. Winnipeg was on a roll after beating the Oilers 4 straight but that bonehead play by Scheifele took the steam out of the Jets and inspired the Habs.  The Habs earned everything, just lost to a better team in the final. 

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

Would it be wrong to say price went cold in the finals and we spotted them 3 games... specifically games 1 2 and 3....

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

4 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Would it be wrong to say price went cold in the finals and we spotted them 3 games... specifically games 1 2 and 3....

 

It wouldn't be wrong to say that. Price was not good in the first 3 games of the final. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

4 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Would it be wrong to say price went cold in the finals and we spotted them 3 games... specifically games 1 2 and 3....

 

Price was merely adequate for the first couple of games, yes, and that settled it.

 

People forget that we had a crazy shot advantage for the first half of game 2. It was something like 20-4…but the score was tied. I remember thinking that, if we did not end up with the lead as a result of that extended domination, we were in trouble. And so it proved.

 

Re: Price, I had the feeling that he was initially thrown by the mere fact of being in the Finals. I felt that way myself - unable to believe that we were actually there, with a feeling of unreality. This is one of the things that can separate a surprise Finalist from a veteran champ team like TB: by the time the Cinderella team realizes what’s happening, they’re down. And then out.

[DON]

Some opinions on how to deal with, or what to do with Mikey Hoffman. 

 

https://www.habsworld.net/2023/05/writers-weigh-in-mike-hoffmans-future/

 

At least this is his last season in Montreal, still trying to learn how to backcheck.

But, gall darn he has an awesome shot and maybe if the team PP improved, no major injuries on the roster, he might still hit 20g and he isnt washed up like Armia seems.