2023/2024 season playoff discussion

[Peter Puck]

I never said that Subban never faced racism.   Everyone faces racism, many face much more than others.  My point was that we don't have any real evidence that PK's problems (which I interpret as his causing us to trade him) were due to his race.   

[Commandant]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:31 PM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have a colleague from Africa. His son, who was born in Canada, plays hockey at a high level. I was chatting with the kid; his favourite players are Evander Kane and PK Subban. And considering how both of those guys were framed as "problems" for much of their careers, crapped on for not being "good Canadian boys" etc., the game is lucky that he didn't get turned off and go in another direction.

 

The future of hockey in Canada is probably as the leading sport of a number of sports, but no longer THE iconic Canadian thing; similar, really, to how baseball went from being "America's pastime" to one of a number of popular sports. And, as has been noted, the game continues to grow elsewhere. OK by me, although it does bode poorly for Canada's prospects in international play in the long run.

This is the original post that started the discussion.

 

It was never about trading PK.

 

It is about how hockey culture is not welcoming to minorities.... and we can clearly see from the example of PK in the NHL, players calling him uppity, facing racial slurs from opponents, bruins fans calling him the N-Word on twitter for scoring an OT goal, darren pang slip of the tongue, fans showing up in black face, and many other examples that hockey culture isnt welcoming.

 

And thats just PK.  We see the same things with Akim Aliu, Joel Ward, Trevor Daley, and numerous others facing racist incidents at the highest levels of the sport.

 

The culture of hockey can be very unwelcoming to minorities and thats an issue that was brought up in response to tha cathal kelly article that hockey isnt in tbe prominent place in canada it once was.

 

How that became PK wasnt traded cause of racism, I dont know.  But that doesnt matter.  Whatever the reason for his trade, his overall experience showed plenty of examples that modern hockey culture has a ways to go before we can say its fully welcoming of minorities.

[hab29RETIRED]

7 hours ago, Peter Puck said:

I never said that Subban never faced racism.   Everyone faces racism, many face much more than others.  My point was that we don't have any real evidence that PK's problems (which I interpret as his causing us to trade him) were due to his race.   

Everybody faces racism? Really?  So most white guys face the same amount of racism as a minorities? Really?  So Crosby faces racism? Sakic faced the same amount of racism as Subban? 

[hab29RETIRED]

7 hours ago, Commandant said:

Krys Barch of the Florida Panthers was suspended by the NHL for using a racial slur against Subban in an NHL game.  Bet there is an explanation for that one too, right?

March wasn’t suspended for a being racist or for a racial slur. He was suspended for a slip of the tongue🙄

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

I think this discussion belongs on another forum, not quite relevant to the "2023/24 season playoff discussion".  Sometimes things can go off on a tangent which I am guilty of as much as anybody. 

 

 

[GHT120]

Back to the playoffs ... what time does the parade start in Toronto today?

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I think this discussion belongs on another forum, not quite relevant to the "2023/24 season playoff discussion".  Sometimes things can go off on a tangent which I am guilty of as much as anybody. 

 

 

 

If @tomh009 or @dlbalr want to move it elsewhere, that's fine with me. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

25 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Back to the playoffs ... what time does the parade start in Toronto today?

 

I think it's 12PM EST but I will double check. 

[tomh009]

2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

If @tomh009 or @dlbalr want to move it elsewhere, that's fine with me. 

If we're done with that sub-thread, I think we're OK with it in here. If we still need to continue, I will move it.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Yannick Hansen was on Vancouver radio prior to Game 5 saying that Nashville has figured out Vancouver.

 

Unfortunately, I’m inclined to agree.

 

While the games are all nail-biters, Van ultimately seems to have no answer to the brutal pounding on Quinn Hughes, and while Hughes is gamely hanging in, he’s not himself (I’ve never seen him lose his footing so much as in this series); and that is causing their entire offensive game to suffer. A guy like Hronek, who wants a huge payday this off-season, would ideally be stepping up to compensate, but I see few signs of that. With Demko out - not that Silov has been weak by any means - and with Pettersson MIA, the best Van can hope for is to eke out a narrow win over the next two, while being at least marginally outplayed. 

 

I don’t think NASH’s model can hold up over four series, but they are definitely a team built to grind you agonizingly in one round.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don’t think NASH’s model can hold up over four series, but they are definitely a team built to grind you agonizingly in one round.

 

Agreed, Nashville is a tough grinding team, similar to Florida that way only Florida is way more dangerous because they have more talent, especially up front.  

 

Vancouver is very fortunate to be up 3-2 in this series. I hope the Canucks prevail but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Nashville comes back to win. 

 

 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Yannick Hansen was on Vancouver radio prior to Game 5 saying that Nashville has figured out Vancouver.

 

Unfortunately, I’m inclined to agree.

 

While the games are all nail-biters, Van ultimately seems to have no answer to the brutal pounding on Quinn Hughes, and while Hughes is gamely hanging in, he’s not himself (I’ve never seen him lose his footing so much as in this series); and that is causing their entire offensive game to suffer. A guy like Hronek, who wants a huge payday this off-season, would ideally be stepping up to compensate, but I see few signs of that. With Demko out - not that Silov has been weak by any means - and with Pettersson MIA, the best Van can hope for is to eke out a narrow win over the next two, while being at least marginally outplayed. 

 

I don’t think NASH’s model can hold up over four series, but they are definitely a team built to grind you agonizingly in one round.

Habs better pay attention because Hutson is going to get the same treatment in the playoffs. 
 

I don’t know if Reinbacker is a tough player but from what I’ve read is that he isn’t aggressive in that way. 
 

Perhaps Xhekaj can be switched to RD or maybe Hutson?

 

Game 6 - Canucks need to move that puck up the ice quickly or they just get slowly ground to dust. Hopefully we get a strong goalie performance too. 

[Commandant]

Vancouver nearly had the series won yesterday and while yes, the Canucks were lucky to win game 4, the Preds were also lucky to win game 5 with a similar late game comeback needed (not last second I know, but Vancouver had the lead late in the third).  A 3-2 series lead seems deserved to me, and factor in that Demko is a very good goalie and Vancouver has played 4 games now without him and are still 2-2 in those games. 

 

I don't think Nashville has figured them out... this series would be over without the goalie injury 

[Peter Puck]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Everybody faces racism? Really?  So most white guys face the same amount of racism as a minorities? Really?  So Crosby faces racism? Sakic faced the same amount of racism as Subban? 

This is just deliberately misquoting me.  It says the opposite of what I said in my post.  I have no time for such dishonesty.

 

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Habs better pay attention because Hutson is going to get the same treatment in the playoffs. 
 

I don’t know if Reinbacker is a tough player but from what I’ve read is that he isn’t aggressive in that way. 
 

Perhaps Xhekaj can be switched to RD or maybe Hutson?

 

Game 6 - Canucks need to move that puck up the ice quickly or they just get slowly ground to dust. Hopefully we get a strong goalie performance too. 

I thought the same thing. On the flip side, Makar, who only is an inch taller and 7lbs heavier than Hughes, had been unstoppable.

 

i think part of Hughes issues is that this is the first year he’s been there, where there are big expectations on him. He had a good playoff as a rookie, but other than that doesn’t have a lot of playoff experience, and this year as a captain and Moreis candidate, it’s the first time he has to deal with the really high expectations.

 

on the other hand, Makar has already been through the playoff grind, won a cup, and has the confidence to appear unstoppable.

 

Vancouver seemed a lot more jittery once Demko went down, and that’s because guys are trying to compensate by either trying to do much, or just being more nervous and less confident. It’s easier to perform when there are no real expectations (like Hughes as a rookie), than when you are expected to drive the offence AND as a dman, compensate for the loss of your #1 goalie.

 

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, Peter Puck said:

This is just deliberately misquoting me.  It says the opposite of what I said in my post.  I have no time for such dishonesty.

 

Everyone faces racism, many face much more than others.
Everyone? I’d have to disagree. Not sure how you can say Sakic, Gretzky, Lafleur, Lemieux, Bobby Orr, Crosby, McKinnon faced ANY racism in hockey.

[alfredoh2009]

5 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Habs better pay attention because Hutson is going to get the same treatment in the playoffs. 
 

I don’t know if Reinbacker is a tough player but from what I’ve read is that he isn’t aggressive in that way. 
 

Perhaps Xhekaj can be switched to RD or maybe Hutson?

 

Game 6 - Canucks need to move that puck up the ice quickly or they just get slowly ground to dust. Hopefully we get a strong goalie performance too. 

 

From what I saw in the few games he played in Laval, Reinbacher will be able to handle the physical play similar to Guhle. He is big, skate very well and does not mind the physical play.

 

He was a great draft pick by the Habs. Kudos to HughGort.

[GHT120]

11 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

From what I saw in the few games he played in Laval, Reinbacher will be able to handle the physical play similar to Guhle. He is big, skate very well and does not mind the physical play.

 

He was a great draft pick by the Habs. Kudos to HughGort.

 

I think the question was more whether Reinbacher will be able to protect Hutson if a Nashville-like team employed similar tactics to what the Preds are doing to Hughes ... of course there is, in my mind, a question of whether Hughes is 100% and how much that is impacting his ability to avoid the Preds punishment.

[alfredoh2009]

11 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

I think the question was more whether Reinbacher will be able to protect Hutson if a Nashville-like team employed similar tactics to what the Preds are doing to Hughes ... of course there is, in my mind, a question of whether Hughes is 100% and how much that is impacting his ability to avoid the Preds punishment.

 

Hutson will need to learn to protect himself at the NHL level, or have a short career. It is the reason he was drafted later than his talent warranted.

Habs do not have any physical RD that can intimidate other teams to protect smaller players. MB moved away from those players, and HughGort does not seem to value that type of player.

[tomh009]

3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Habs do not have any physical RD that can intimidate other teams to protect smaller players. MB moved away from those players, and HughGort does not seem to value that type of player.

We have Xhekaj, Struble and Slafkovsky, all able to take on a villain. And I don't think the Sheriff needs to be on the ice in order to make his presence felt.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don’t see how you “protect” a player from what are basically clean hits. Especially in the playoffs, when an instigator penalty is very damaging.

 

I agree with Alfredoh that Hutson, like Hughes, will have to protect himself. And Habs29 makes the point that Hughes has never been targeted like this. Next time around, he’ll probably be more ready for it.

 

Remember in 2014 when the Bruins’s game plan involved hitting the crap out of Subban? I think it was Game 5…the announcer declared early in the game, after watching PK dodge a few attempts, that PK was simply too quick for them to hit. That was the moment when I really began to believe that the Habs would win that series (which we did).

 

It’s not ALL on the D-man, though. One of the talking points in Van is that you ease the pressure on Hughes by having a more effective forecheck, which prevents Nashville from winding up and driving into the zone with the crushing speed that leads their captain to get splattered. The Canucks implemented this to better effect last game.

 

So, a combo of smart, prepared player learning to adapt, and smart team play, can help a Hutson to survive.

 

I still think an under-played theme in all this is that Hronek, who wants a huge payday this summer, has not stepped up to take some of the burden off Hughes. If other teams target Hutson and, say, Mailloux is able to raise his game short-term, that would also help mitigate the danger.

 

 

[alfredoh2009]

38 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

We have Xhekaj, Struble and Slafkovsky, all able to take on a villain. And I don't think the Sheriff needs to be on the ice in order to make his presence felt.

 

Struble and Slafkovsky are big but I do not thing they know how to fight. Xhekaj was sent to the minors to learn NOT-to-fight.

I believe that this Habs management and coaching ensemble does not believe in the value of a player that is able to "take on a villain". It has been interesting to see how MSL has helped Caufield deal with that part of the game, I do not know how Caufield, and later Hutson, will perform in the playoffs

[GHT120]

19 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

Struble and Slafkovsky are big but I do not thing they know how to fight. Xhekaj was sent to the minors to learn NOT-to-fight.

I believe that this Habs management and coaching ensemble does not believe in the value of a player that is able to "take on a villain". It has been interesting to see how MSL has helped Caufield deal with that part of the game, I do not know how Caufield, and later Hutson, will perform in the playoffs

 

I think Xhekaj was sent to the minors to primarily to improve his defensive play and perhaps to learn WHEN to fight, rather than "not" to fight.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don’t see how you “protect” a player from what are basically clean hits. Especially in the playoffs, when an instigator penalty is very damaging.

 

I agree with Alfredoh that Hutson, like Hughes, will have to protect himself. And Habs29 makes the point that Hughes has never been targeted like this. Next time around, he’ll probably be more ready for it.

 

Remember in 2014 when the Bruins’s game plan involved hitting the crap out of Subban? I think it was Game 5…the announcer declared early in the game, after watching PK dodge a few attempts, that PK was simply too quick for them to hit. That was the moment when I really began to believe that the Habs would win that series (which we did).

 

It’s not ALL on the D-man, though. One of the talking points in Van is that you ease the pressure on Hughes by having a more effective forecheck, which prevents Nashville from winding up and driving into the zone with the crushing speed that leads their captain to get splattered. The Canucks implemented this to better effect last game.

 

So, a combo of smart, prepared player learning to adapt, and smart team play, can help a Hutson to survive.

 

I still think an under-played theme in all this is that Hronek, who wants a huge payday this summer, has not stepped up to take some of the burden off Hughes. If other teams target Hutson and, say, Mailloux is able to raise his game short-term, that would also help mitigate the danger.

 

 

Great post!

 

[dlbalr]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Habs do not have any physical RD that can intimidate other teams to protect smaller players. MB moved away from those players, and HughGort does not seem to value that type of player.

 

He did?  He brought in Chiarot, Edmundson, and Savard on NHL deals and signed Xhekaj to his ELC.  If anything, I think he was a little too enamoured with the big, physical defencemen you're describing; he certainly didn't move away from them.