CerebusClone Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If we forget about everything else, Bob Gainey should jump on this offer if it presents itself. The Canadiens would be getting a franchise player in return for several "good" players, and this is a deal that you cannot pass on; this is the type of deal that instantly transformed the San Jose Sharks from a good team to a top contender. If we add the fact that Lecavalier is a francophone player from the Montreal region, the organization also gets a huge boost for the marketing department. I can’t imagine how some people - including some of the media - would feel about having a top offensive line made up of three francophone players on this centennial season (Tanguay-Lecavalier-Latendresse). However there are several problems with this deal. First and foremost it just doesn’t work cap-wise for Montreal as this deal – including the replacements for the Higgins and Gorges – would add over 2 millions in salary towards our cap, and that’s including the fact that we’re at the mid-season point (about 50% less). Basically we would need to sent Dandeneault, Begin, and Laraque down to the minors without replacing them, and therefore playing with a 21-man roster (perhaps a Greg Stewart would fit, I’m not entirely sure). Even if we make this work financially, the Canadiens are aiming the for Stanley Cup this season, and such a deal would bring significant changes to the lineup while completely changing the dynamics and the chemistry within locker room. Of course things could go smoothly, however a change of this importance mid-way into the season is more likely to require some time before the roster stabilizes, and that strategies are adapted (especially with such an inexperienced coaching staff that is still learning on the spot). Actually I can’t even remember the last time a team won the Stanley Cup after a change of this importance mid-way into the season… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I forgot to add one last thing. Let's not forget that Lecavalier is entering his new long term contract next season, and that's he's playing this season despite the fact that he's not 100% after his shoulder surgery. If the Canadiens are to make such a deal, they better make damn sure that Lecavalier is fully recovered, and that his shoulder won't be constantly bothering him over the next 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I see no reason, as the year progresses and the cap plummets, that Komisarek will be given anything close to what was rumoured early in the season. Koivu and Lang? I can honestly see Koivu re-signing for a number far closer to $3M, perhaps less. Does anyone - including himself - think he's going to go, at his age and injury liability, to another team and land a sweetheart deal? While I agree that players might accept a little lower contracts because of the economy, I disagree that Komi will not see his 5 or 5.5M$. If he doesn't (and stay witht the Habs) I'll have to buy a Gainey Jersey. The most crazy and amazing thing that could happen this summer is to see Kovy and Lang/Koivu pull a Paul Kariya in Colorado and sign a ridiculously 2 years low contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Fisher does have an extra year to play in college, but i thought the rule was they need to be signed ny there JR year in college or 21 years old. I think this is how Boston signed Wheeler as a ufa. You guys bring up good points on Vinnie but to me it's too much to give up. I trust Bg to do the right thing. Besides i'm sure he signed for 11 years because he likes it Tampa, maybe he fold under all the pressure in Montreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Fisher does have an extra year to play in college, but i thought the rule was they need to be signed ny there JR year in college or 21 years old. I think this is how Boston signed Wheeler as a ufa. You guys bring up good points on Vinnie but to me it's too much to give up. I trust Bg to do the right thing. Besides i'm sure he signed for 11 years because he likes it Tampa, maybe he fold under all the pressure in Montreal. The Coyotes had 4 weeks to come to terms with Wheeler once he sent his 30-day notice that he would forego his senior year in college. They offered the maximum for an entry-level contract, but he rejected it, instead exercising his right to become a UFA. I believe the Coyotes were compensated by the league with an additional 2nd round pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I think Koivu will resign for less, maybe something around 3 mil. He's made a fair amount of money over his long career and is well settled in Montreal with his family (despite the monumental amount of bull he has to put up with from the french media). He also says that he wants to retire here. What makes this different than the Sundin/Toronto affair is that Montreal is on the way up, making it that much more attractive for him to want to stay. Kovalev, I'm not so sure about. He's already hopped around a couple teams and I think he would be able to demand more than Koivu could on the open market. He might walk, but I think he's becoming less and less necessary for the team anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) While I agree that players might accept a little lower contracts because of the economy, I disagree that Komi will not see his 5 or 5.5M$. If he doesn't (and stay witht the Habs) I'll have to buy a Gainey Jersey. Agreed. If Bob can sign Komisarek to a long term deal for anything under 5 million$ per year, I will be amazed! I doubt it'll happen, mostly cause Komisarek could get 6 million$ per year if he went to free agency. Even if we can sign him long term to anything in the 5 to 5.5 million$ range, I'll be really happy! Bob Gainey should jump on this offer if it presents itself. The Canadiens would be getting a franchise player in return for several "good" players, and this is a deal that you cannot pass on; this is the type of deal that instantly transformed the San Jose Sharks from a good team to a top contender. I agree that Bob should try to get Vinny...but at what cost? What did San Jose pay for Thornton? Not as much as what Tampa is supposedly asking for Lecavalier. I think San Jose gave up 3 players for Thornton. We would have to cough up 4 players and 2 first round picks...it's just way too much! I can’t imagine how some people - including some of the media - would feel about having a top offensive line made up of three francophone players on this centennial season (Tanguay-Lecavalier-Latendresse). I'd love to see a Tanguay-Lecavalier-Latendresse Line...but again, how much would it cost us? How much will Tanguay ask for next year? Will he be willig to take a pay cut? From 5.5 million to 4.5 million? I doubt it. I think Koivu will resign for less, maybe something around 3 mil. He's made a fair amount of money over his long career and is well settled in Montreal with his family (despite the monumental amount of bull he has to put up with from the french media). He also says that he wants to retire here. What makes this different than the Sundin/Toronto affair is that Montreal is on the way up, making it that much more attractive for him to want to stay. Kovalev, I'm not so sure about. He's already hopped around a couple teams and I think he would be able to demand more than Koivu could on the open market. He might walk, but I think he's becoming less and less necessary for the team anyways. I also beleive Koivu could resign here for 3 or 3.5 million$ per year on a 2 year deal...but Let's not forget that Kovy has also mentionned that he'd like to finish his career in Montreal. Kovy likes it in this city. Question is, how much does he like it here? Is he willing to stay for 8 million$ over 2 years? Edited January 13, 2009 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I agree that Bob should try to get Vinny...but at what cost. What did San Jose pay fro Thornton? Not as much as what Tampa is supposedly asking for Lecavalier. I think San Jose gave up 3 players for Thornton. We would have to cough up 4 players and 2 first round picks...it's just way too much! That was a horrible deal from Boston, that's not exactly the standard for acquiring a franchise player. In this rumour, Montreal is not giving up any core player. Plekanec is a fairly good two-way centre, but nothing more. Higgins has had no impact on the team this season, or even last year. Gorges would be the hardest one to replace, but he's nothing more than he very reliable depth defenseman. What could make this pill a little hard to swallow is what could happen with PK Subban and those 1st rounder. However although extremely likable, Subban most likely won't become a stud defenseman, and at best a very good offensive specialist. He could also be a career AHLer. Besides we have a lot of depth at that position to compensate his loss. As for the draft picks, we're talking about two late 1st round picks, none of which are likely to equal Vincent Lecavalier. Giving up a few nice players for a huge building block is a GM's dream. As for the cap issues, they're only for this season. Otherwise Lecavalier will have a cap hit of ~7.7 millions, which is under market value, and roughly the equivalent of the combined salaries of Saku Koivu, Mathieu Dandeneault, and Francis Bouillon, therefore something relatively easy to manage. I'd love to see a Tanguay-Lecavalier-Latendresse Line...but again, how much would it cost us. How much will Tanguay ask for next year? Will he be willig to take a pay cut? From 5.5 million to 4.5 million? I doubt it. I was only talking about this season, personally I don't think I would resign Tanguay as he's pretty much what I expected: a skilled support player for better offensive leaders who's a bit on the soft side. I think we have enough of those skilled wingers, what we need are the offensive leaders that will carry them (ex. Lecavalier, Kovalev from last season, or the pre-lockout Koivu). The only signed player we have with the potential to carry a line is Andrei Kostsitsyn, and he's not there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redondo Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I hope this deal doesn't go down, personally. Vinny would be great to have, but that salary is a killer, IMO. Loooong and fat..... What scares me the most about it is that it's a departure from a way this team has been built (and a way that has obviously worked). Now I know you can't hang onto kids forever, and our prospect system is overstocked, BUT the reported price is a bit high for a guy who is really not in the first tier of superstars (a really short list where I would include guys like Ovechkin, Thornton, Crosby, and maybe 1-2 others), even if he is "the Michael Jordan of hockey". For example when Price comes up for big $$$ Vinny will still be on the books etc etc.......Plus what we'd be reportedly giving up also have some hidden risks: - PK: yes, we have plenty of d-men, but puck-carrying, offensive d-men? The list gets shorter all of a sudden..... - Higgins: not against trading him, but can't we do it AFTER we've resigned Komi? - Two 1st rounders: this is really the killer for me, other than Vinny's salary. Especially when we've been drafting so well for a number of years, those first rounders are almost worth more to us then they are to Tampa, if that makes sense.... Anyway, love Vinny, but no thanks to that deal, at least as reported. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Georges is the deal breaker for me. We are struggling on defense as it stands how can we give up a solid Dman who is obviously well liked in the dressing room? I hope that the deal somehow gets done though. How long have we waited for a superstar of our own? Lots of great players here right now but Vinny is one of the very few superstars in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Georges is the deal breaker for me. We are struggling on defense as it stands how can we give up a solid Dman who is obviously well liked in the dressing room? I hope that the deal somehow gets done though. How long have we waited for a superstar of our own? Lots of great players here right now but Vinny is one of the very few superstars in the league. He shoudn't be a deal breaker for acquiring a player like Lecavalier, but I agree that it would leave a void to fill. Hopefully O'Byrne could come back strong, and play at least like he did last season, otherwise we could probably either make a minor deal, or sign a Danny Markov-type player to replace him this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I can't believe this deal would happen as reported. NO way Bob will create a hole like this in the D-corps 2 days after saying in the medias that the place the Habs have to enforce is defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I can't believe this deal would happen as reported. NO way Bob will create a hole like this in the D-corps 2 days after saying in the medias that the place the Habs have to enforce is defense. What if Bob makes 2 deals. First he trades Chipchura to Calgary for Giordano. T4hen he can complete the Trade with Tampa. That way we can replace the loss of Gorges with Giordano! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 let's not forget that if the cap drops it will be due to revenues being down and if that happens then the players percentage will be too high and they will all be taking a haircut (drop in salary) so that 11 mill may not be 11 mill also the most any 1 player can make is 20% of the cap so those 2 factors may mean that his salary may not be what we think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 And here's where I think Gainey's patience is going to put Montreal in a bit more of a commanding position than perhaps some are giving him credit for. Will we really have to forego one of Koivu/Lang? (Or perhaps Tanguay or Kovalev?) I think we all understand that, with the financial situation such as it is, the cap is going to plummet, probably not next season, but the one after that. Which means that long-term planning has to be careful. I didn't mean that in terms of salary, I meant it in terms of positioning. If Lecavalier were to come, you have him as 1, Koivu 2, Lang 3, Lapierre 4 for this season, with Chipchura on the outside looking in. If Chipchura is part of the plans, he'll need to be #4 next season, with Lapierre 3. That leaves one spot for 2 centres. I think they'd have a chance at bringing both UFA wingers of note back, but unless one of Koivu/Lang is willing to switch to the wing, there may not be much opportunity to bring back the 2 C's. Both Koivu and Lang are old and will likely get 1 year deals anyways, so their contracts would be off the books before the cap plummets before the 10-11 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mont Royale Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Given that the reason for this trade would be Tampa Bay's financial difficulties, I can't imagine Gainey would have to give up so much (or that he would agree to). Looking at potential suitors for a Lecavalier-sized contract, who's out there? The fact that many of the league's teams are struggling financially (or rumoured to be) reduces the list. Then knock out those teams already saddled with one or two players with big contracts who wouldn't be inclined to further concentrate their cap dollars (NYR, Philadelphia, Washington, Pittsburgh, and Vancouver come immediately to mind). Then knock out those teams who don't have the depth to make the kind of deal Montreal can... The point is, if TB truly wants out of this contract because of their financial condition, their options would be very limited, which leads to the conclusion that Montreal shouldn't have to overpay. Given the quality of the other pieces involved (Pleks, Higgins, Subban, draft picks), I can't see how Gorges would need to be involved; arguably it's overpaying without Gorges. As for fan reaction, Tampa Bay fans aren't going to like the deal any better because Gorges is part of it - they'll know they're getting screwed regardless. Someone like Bouillon or Dandenault could be added instead to make the dollars work this year (which TB will like because it's an expiring contract). There you have it, Bob, now get this thing done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 He shoudn't be a deal breaker for acquiring a player like Lecavalier, but I agree that it would leave a void to fill. Hopefully O'Byrne could come back strong, and play at least like he did last season, otherwise we could probably either make a minor deal, or sign a Danny Markov-type player to replace him this season. It isn't that Georges is too great to give up. It is the fact that we desperately need him and the proposed deal is already quite steep without Georges. If Gainey can somehow make another deal for a reliable Dman then it would be easier to accept. O'Byrne is not the answer. What if Bob makes 2 deals. First he trades Chipchura to Calgary for Giordano. T4hen he can complete the Trade with Tampa. That way we can replace the loss of Gorges with Giordano! That would be alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I didn't mean that in terms of salary, I meant it in terms of positioning. If Lecavalier were to come, you have him as 1, Koivu 2, Lang 3, Lapierre 4 for this season, with Chipchura on the outside looking in. If Chipchura is part of the plans, he'll need to be #4 next season, with Lapierre 3. That leaves one spot for 2 centres. I think they'd have a chance at bringing both UFA wingers of note back, but unless one of Koivu/Lang is willing to switch to the wing, there may not be much opportunity to bring back the 2 C's. Both Koivu and Lang are old and will likely get 1 year deals anyways, so their contracts would be off the books before the cap plummets before the 10-11 season. I will be amazed if Koivu accepts a one-year deal - nor should he. If I were him, I'd be looking for one of those deals that ensure he'll retire in Montreal, i.e., maybe three years. And frankly I think he's entitled to something like that. I agree that the price for Vinny is steep - Mont Royale's analysis makes a pretty convincing case that Tampa will have few credible suitors. I'll live with the deal either way, but it would be nice to see at least one of those elements (Gorges, or the second 1st-round pick) shaved off. The Giorando rumour is compelling because it would solve the "Gorges" problem. If Bob could pull that off, he would clearly have MADE HIS MOVE - decisively packaged young assets in return for a deal that makes us bona fide contenders, without gutting the pool of young talent. Truth is, I don't think we truly can lose unless we fail to replace Gorges. Either way, we'll have a damned strong team and retain a convincing nucleus of young talent. This is an example of how success generates its own momentum - you deal from strength to build even more strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I will be amazed if Koivu accepts a one-year deal - nor should he. If I were him, I'd be looking for one of those deals that ensure he'll retire in Montreal, i.e., maybe three years. And frankly I think he's entitled to something like that. I agree that the price for Vinny is steep - Mont Royale's analysis makes a pretty convincing case that Tampa will have few credible suitors. I'll live with the deal either way, but it would be nice to see at least one of those elements (Gorges, or the second 1st-round pick) shaved off. The Giorando rumour is compelling because it would solve the "Gorges" problem. If Bob could pull that off, he would clearly have MADE HIS MOVE - decisively packaged young assets in return for a deal that makes us bona fide contenders, without gutting the pool of young talent. Truth is, I don't think we truly can lose unless we fail to replace Gorges. Either way, we'll have a damned strong team and retain a convincing nucleus of young talent. This is an example of how success generates its own momentum - you deal from strength to build even more strength. Unless we let go of the serious hope of winning this year. We have some quality Dmen in our system that could address the Georges issue in one or two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I will be amazed if Koivu accepts a one-year deal - nor should he. If I were him, I'd be looking for one of those deals that ensure he'll retire in Montreal, i.e., maybe three years. And frankly I think he's entitled to something like that. I agree he's entitled, but after this season, Koivu, Brisebois, Lang, and Kovalev are all subjected to the 35+ clause, where the contract counts, regardless of playing status. Not many 35+ players are getting multi-year deals, and with the economic uncertaintly looming, I'm skeptical that too many will. Does he deserve a multi-year deal to stay? Certainly, and I hopes he gets one with the Habs, but the way the last few years have been with the market, I simply can't foresee him getting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafikz Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I'm sorry, but for the price we pay him, Brisebois has been doing a very decent job over the past two seasons. I'd even say that he does a good job. Sure he makes some defensive mistakes, but he makes up for it on offense! After that Bruins game, allow me to reiterate my point: Breeze stills sucks; 1 bad dumb penalty that led to a goal, and he almost gave another goal with a horrible giveaway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 After that Bruins game, allow me to reiterate my point: Breeze stills sucks; 1 bad dumb penalty that led to a goal, and he almost gave another goal with a horrible giveaway. It was only dumb because it was a BS call. He barely touched the guy, let alone hooked him. I realize the refs are quick to the whistle when the stick is horizontal, but that was just ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFT77 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 After that Bruins game, allow me to reiterate my point: Breeze stills sucks; 1 bad dumb penalty that led to a goal, and he almost gave another goal with a horrible giveaway. Breezer definitely had a poor game tonite, but he's been playing fairly decent with what is expected of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Gainey, Julien Brisebois and Pierre Gauthier were all absents last night at Boston......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) It was only dumb because it was a BS call. He barely touched the guy, let alone hooked him. I realize the refs are quick to the whistle when the stick is horizontal, but that was just ridiculous.Yeah, Breezer sometimes gets hell for things that are not his fault. Recently he lost the puck inside our blueline which led to a goal. I forget which game but he looked like vintage bad Breezer on that play. Problem is too many people blame him for things he has no control over. Bouillon gave Brisebois the puck. He dished it to him back along the boards in our zone and it was subsequently stolen. Bouillon made the error. He put Breezer into a losing scenario and that's what happened. Why did Bouillon put it back? That was the mistake when he should have cleared the zone. But, usually people don't study the play or down outright misinterpret. All they see is #71 and go, "It's him again"... ...when it actually wasn't at all. Tunnel vision if you ask me. Edited January 14, 2009 by Athlétique.Canadien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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