kaos Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 This "deal" proposed by Dreger makes no sense... First of all, the Habs have no cap space on the payroll. They are at 56.544million$(which is less than 500,000$ away from the cap. Even if you pick up Lecavalier and you only have to pay 1/2 his salary(because 1/2 the season has passed, you exceed the cap space, because Plex and higgins make a combined 3.3 million$(cap space). then ou have to add Paul Rangers 1.1 million$ salary(1/2=550,000$) and you bust the cap even more. I don't think this deal can happen! The habs have had a few million under the cap to start the season. When you add in all the time guys like Higgins, Price, Laraque, Dandeanult, Tanguay and others have spent on the IR....that adds up to cap space as well. Then you add in Higgins and Pleakecs salaries and thats another $3.5 Million. There is room there. Maybe they have to dump another contract. There was nothing abour Ranger in the article....somebody else threw that in there There is a possibiltiy this will happen, but Tamp needs to get their sh.it together first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 The habs have had a few million under the cap to start the season. When you add in all the time guys like Higgins, Price, Laraque, Dandeanult, Tanguay and others have spent on the IR....that adds up to cap space as well. Then you add in Higgins and Pleakecs salaries and thats another $3.5 Million. There is room there. Maybe they have to dump another contract. There was nothing abour Ranger in the article....somebody else threw that in there There is a possibiltiy this will happen, but Tamp needs to get their sh.it together first cap rule is "at any given time" you cannot exceed the cap... it's not the total spending by the end of the year. otherwise, a team could theorically load up with 500k players, then trade for 10 guys worth 10M and steal the CUP. ----------- that said, we'd have to free roughly 7.5M to make room for Vinny. the easy way out, aka EA's NHL, in your dreams deal. Plekanec + Higgins = 3.2M 5.3M left Dandy + Cube = 3.6M (we'd basically have to lose those guys for nothing.. and then call up a guy like Weber or O'Byrne 700k left (but add the O'burn salary) ... lots of tinkering.. totally impossible. the hard way out, aka reality would be something as follows: a big guy like Koivu or ... LANG (noooo!) is traded away to free cap room we get a good return. Vinny would fill the void. 3M worth of players is traded (dandy + higgins or something like that, players who have no impact on our performances right now). the balance is filled with our very best prospects. whoever they want, they have, i.e. be it Chipchura, McDonaugh, or what not... Maybe anyone but Max Pac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I don't think that's right, Stream. I actually think loading up on 500K players and then getting 10 10M players at the deadline might be legal. Brian or saskhab mentioned something about that once. Also, since we're halfway through the year, we wouldn't need to to open up 7.5 million to fit him under the cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I don't think that's right, Stream. I actually think loading up on 500K players and then getting 10 10M players at the deadline might be legal. Brian or saskhab mentioned something about that once. Also, since we're halfway through the year, we wouldn't need to to open up 7.5 million to fit him under the cap. The key to any major acquisition at this point, IMO, is Tanguay's status. Temproarily, we can go over the cap by a significant amount by placing him on LTIR. But if he's just back in 6 weeks, the cap space problem would re-emerge. Cap space is always a "projected" total. But actual cap hit is a per diem value... Our cap hit to date is the sum of every player we've had on our active and injured roster from day 1 to now. Our projected cap space is based on our cap hit to date plus the sum of everyone's cap hits from now until the end of the year. In lamens terms, our projected cap space (currently somewhere between $150,000 and $250,000 depending on potential bonuses) assumes that everyone currently on the team and injured reserve will stay there until the end of the season. This "no cap space" thing is a bit of a misnomer... it assumes, for example, that Marc Denis will not return to Hamilton for the rest of the year, let alone Yannick Weber, Kyle Chipchura, Max Pacioretty or Matt D'Agostini (though likely one of them will remain). If such a trade were made at the deadline, I could see it working out. I'd have to do some number crunching, but such a move would seem plausible. Remember, when healthy, we had about $2m in projected cap space available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I hate to say it, but Kovalev could be in the mix. With his expiring contact, Tampa could take him, free us some space, and still present the dwindling fan base of theirs a top player. It's the longevity of Vinnie's contact that troubles the lightning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 The key to any major acquisition at this point, IMO, is Tanguay's status. Temproarily, we can go over the cap by a significant amount by placing him on LTIR. But if he's just back in 6 weeks, the cap space problem would re-emerge. Cap space is always a "projected" total. But actual cap hit is a per diem value... Our cap hit to date is the sum of every player we've had on our active and injured roster from day 1 to now. Our projected cap space is based on our cap hit to date plus the sum of everyone's cap hits from now until the end of the year. In lamens terms, our projected cap space (currently somewhere between $150,000 and $250,000 depending on potential bonuses) assumes that everyone currently on the team and injured reserve will stay there until the end of the season. This "no cap space" thing is a bit of a misnomer... it assumes, for example, that Marc Denis will not return to Hamilton for the rest of the year, let alone Yannick Weber, Kyle Chipchura, Max Pacioretty or Matt D'Agostini (though likely one of them will remain). If such a trade were made at the deadline, I could see it working out. I'd have to do some number crunching, but such a move would seem plausible. Remember, when healthy, we had about $2m in projected cap space available. per diem cap = i was right in your face BTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) cap rule is "at any given time" you cannot exceed the cap... it's not the total spending by the end of the year. otherwise, a team could theorically load up with 500k players, then trade for 10 guys worth 10M and steal the CUP. ----------- that said, we'd have to free roughly 7.5M to make room for Vinny. the easy way out, aka EA's NHL, in your dreams deal. Plekanec + Higgins = 3.2M 5.3M left Dandy + Cube = 3.6M (we'd basically have to lose those guys for nothing.. and then call up a guy like Weber or O'Byrne 700k left (but add the O'burn salary) ... lots of tinkering.. totally impossible. the hard way out, aka reality would be something as follows: a big guy like Koivu or ... LANG (noooo!) is traded away to free cap room we get a good return. Vinny would fill the void. 3M worth of players is traded (dandy + higgins or something like that, players who have no impact on our performances right now). the balance is filled with our very best prospects. whoever they want, they have, i.e. be it Chipchura, McDonaugh, or what not... Maybe anyone but Max Pac. Sorry man you don't seem to really understand how the cap works. I don't really have time to explain it to you either. Suffice to say that players who are on the IR like the ones I mention do not count against your cap while on the IR. That plus the salaries they trade, plus what they already have under the salary cap to work with makes a deal with the Lightning for Lecavalier a definitley possibility. If it wasn't Bob Gainey wouldn't be talking with the Lightning and he would have shot downt he rumours by now. THis is quite possibly going to happen if Lecavalier decides he wants to come Montreal. As for next year, a couple of Kovalev, Lang, Koivu and or Tanguay will be history freeing up salary. Mind you, the Lecavalier salary may become an anchor when the cap takes a drop in 2010 or 2011. But the young guys salaries like Dagostini, Pacioretty and Chipchura may help offsett that Edited January 12, 2009 by kaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 If Vinnie is available, then we should go to some lengths to try to get him, including the package proposed above. He is the answer - and about as good an answer as it's possible to get - to the fundamental lack of elite-level centremen within the organization and the system. I suppose I'm stating the obvious. Whether it can work with the cap is another matter, but not re-signing Kovalev would help, and with Vinnie on board, Kovy becomes much less important. But I don't think it will happen, even if the cap works, because Gainey has consistently shown that he will not get involved in sustained bidding wars that jeopardize the future. Look at what happened with Hossa, where Pittsburgh upped the ante at the last second and Bob balked. There will always be some idiotic GM, somewhere, more willing than Bob to sell the farm and decimate the nucleus of his team in order to acquire a Big Name. Bob is simply not stupid enough to get involved in that crap. For this reason among others, I'm pessimistic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Just when the rumors die, they come back. Argh. Let Lecavalier stay in the obscurity of Tampa. Seems the most press he gets is for trade rumors (I'm not doubting his ability at all, but please, I wish this would stay a dead story as it was after the signing of his extension.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 I would hazard to guess that any desire Vinny ever had for playing in Montreal slowly died over the years as he became more and more sick of the constant rumors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitforming Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Just when the rumors die, they come back. Argh. Let Lecavalier stay in the obscurity of Tampa. Seems the most press he gets is for trade rumors (I'm not doubting his ability at all, but please, I wish this would stay a dead story as it was after the signing of his extension.) There has always been rumors about Vinny coming "home" but the coverage of the mainstream media on this particular "rumor" has never been so widely covered nor openly talked about involving the Canadiens or anyone specific since acquiring Mats Sundin's rights at the draft. Where theres smoke.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Sorry man you don't seem to really understand how the cap works. I don't really have time to explain it to you either. Suffice to say that players who are on the IR like the ones I mention do not count against your cap while on the IR. That plus the salaries they trade, plus what they already have under the salary cap to work with makes a deal with the Lightning for Lecavalier a definitley possibility. If it wasn't Bob Gainey wouldn't be talking with the Lightning and he would have shot downt he rumours by now. THis is quite possibly going to happen if Lecavalier decides he wants to come Montreal. As for next year, a couple of Kovalev, Lang, Koivu and or Tanguay will be history freeing up salary. Mind you, the Lecavalier salary may become an anchor when the cap takes a drop in 2010 or 2011. But the young guys salaries like Dagostini, Pacioretty and Chipchura may help offsett that i dont have time to waste to insult you back, sorry. i didn't mention anything IR, etc. I said it's on a per day basis, whatever counts against the cap on a given day (excluding IR, etc) cannot exceed the per diem cap. as opposed to "whatever was paid during the year cannot exceed the yearly cap". that's the only thing i said mr 40% warning going on 50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 People point to his No Trade Clause and foregoing free agency as a sign that he doesn't ever want to play for Montreal... that's just a measure to control where he can play. It's not a "never, EVER will I play for the Habs" clause. It could just as easily be taken as a "I never, ever will play for St. Louis" clause. He likes Tampa, no doubt about it, and he wants control over how he leaves the area if it comes to that. It means nothing more or less than that. If Tampa can't afford him, Vinny might have to reluctantly go elsewhere. There's been nothing to suggest that going to Montreal wouldn't be his second (or third or what have you) choice. A year ago, we were hearing how Alex Tanguay would never waive his NTC to play for Montreal, but the rumors persisted. Georges Laraque wrote an article in the Gazette once about how he never wanted to play for the Habs. Jean Beliveau never wanted to be a habs, either. Not saying this will happen, but it shouldn't be tossed under the rug, and Vinny shouldn't be viewed as "anti-Montreal" for being pro-Tampa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 People point to his No Trade Clause and foregoing free agency as a sign that he doesn't ever want to play for Montreal... that's just a measure to control where he can play. It's not a "never, EVER will I play for the Habs" clause. It could just as easily be taken as a "I never, ever will play for St. Louis" clause. He likes Tampa, no doubt about it, and he wants control over how he leaves the area if it comes to that. It means nothing more or less than that. <snip> I wouldn't want to trade for a guy who didn't want to come to Montreal, but Vinnie's NTC doesn't go into effect until July 1. I agree, though, that re-upping with Tampa does not mean he is anti-Montreal. There has always been rumors about Vinny coming "home" but the coverage of the mainstream media on this particular "rumor" has never been so widely covered nor openly talked about involving the Canadiens or anyone specific since acquiring Mats Sundin's rights at the draft. Where there's smoke.... are you saying Vinnie's going to be a Canuck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Not sure if this was posted yet. If so, please forgive. Bob McKenzie says it's all up to Vinnie which leads me to believe that TB is wavering in whether or not to retain him. This rumour is getting juicy. We'll see in time. All I can say is: WOW MCKENZIE: POTENTIAL FOR LECAVALIER GOING TO HABS IS THERE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House11 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I think this is really the 1st time the "Vinny to Montreal" rumor has actual legs to it ... if it happened in the next couple weeks or so ... I think there could be riots in Montreal ! Boy the Lightning are in some big trouble if they're thinking of trading away their franchise player because of money issues. Maybe they do need to rebuild cause what they're doing now isn't working. But the flip side is maybe you wait and see if Stamkos can develop and they can get some D who can actually play defense ... maybe they can get good again next season and re-build that fan base and make some money ... but that's the gamble. It would be alot of pressure for Vinny ... but if he can succeed in Montreal and say win at least 1 cup ... he would be remembered as one of the great players in the team's history and his legacy would be brighter. Don't get me wrong he can stay in TB and be remembered there. But to be remembered as a great Habs player is even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 Sorry man you don't seem to really understand how the cap works. I don't really have time to explain it to you either. Suffice to say that players who are on the IR like the ones I mention do not count against your cap while on the IR. Sorry man, but you don't understand it either. The only time players on IR do not count against the cap is if the team goes over the cap to replace those players in the lineup. Higgins, Koivu, Tanguay, and Dandenault are all counting against the cap, because we have not gone over the cap to replace them in the lineup. I personally think that is stupid, but that is how it was explained to me by HW's capologist, dlbalr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I just about had a heart attack when I heard Komisarek's name mentioned, but Mackenzie writes: sources in Montreal say the actual offer the Canadiens have put on the table for Lecavalier does NOT include defenceman Mike Komisarek, nor is it likely to, but would see Tomas Plekanec, Chris Higgins, prospect P.K. Subban, Josh Gorges and a package of draft picks including more than one first-round pick going to Tampa. Phew! No WAY should Komi be traded for anyone, unless his name starts with an "O" and ends with a "vechkin." Period. I'd hate to lose Subban, who I'm absolutely cowabunga over, and it would be a bummer to trade Gorges, who's such a character guy and has shown such improvement. This trade would leave a significant hole on D that would have to be fixed in order for us to contend. But Pleks can go - good as he has the potential to be, we won't need him with Lecavalier here; and Higgins has been shown to be pretty inessential to team success, much as I like the guy. But I'd be hesitant to give them more than one first-rounder PLUS sure-fire offensive star Subban, who may as well count as a top-end pick given his status. There's already an element of risk given the 11-year deal to Vinny. Careful, Bob. Still, the bottom line is that this deal could work. Mackenize is an unimpeachable source. This isn't fan fantasy, this is by all accounts an actual offer Gainey's made, and the right people are saying it checks out. Maybe my early attitude that Bob is destined to be out-bid was unduly pessimistic. And I don't buy that Vinny actively doesn't want to play here. A lot of this sort of talk stems from that decade of Habs' suckage, where players had the good sense NOT to want to join a hornet's nest. Now that we are an elite team, players will be much more interested, and Vinny may be among those. Exciting stuff... :hlogo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If you don't have a career in writing, you should change up!! That "O" "vechkin" line made me laugh out loud!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 We have a good team without Vinny, I don't know if adding him halfway through the season would necessarily help us in the playoffs. But having said that, he's one of the few superstars who's actually worth the money. But that contract is huge and for so damn long, it's all but guaranteed to bite us in the ass down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Sorry man, but you don't understand it either. The only time players on IR do not count against the cap is if the team goes over the cap to replace those players in the lineup. Higgins, Koivu, Tanguay, and Dandenault are all counting against the cap, because we have not gone over the cap to replace them in the lineup. I personally think that is stupid, but that is how it was explained to me by HW's capologist, dlbalr. Players have to be on LTIR to go have the potential cap savings - 1 player is on there now (believed to be Dandenault.) Habs are very limited in current cap space, and suggesting that some of the callups would be going down if such a deal were to occur would be erroneous; if 3 or 4 players were to go, the callups would have to stay to hold down the roster positions. Lecavalier's salary by season after this: 09-10: 10,000,000 10-11: 10,000,000 11-12: 10,000,000 12-13: 10,000,000 13-14: 10,000,000 14-15: 10,000,000 15-16: 10,000,000 16-17: 8,500,000 17-18: 4,000,000 18-19: 1,500,000 19-20: 1,000,000 Last 3 years are buyout years, as a salary cap credit may be available to whoever has him at the time. (Please don't ask me to elaborate, as it'd take hours to do the tables up...) Cap hit for these seasons would be $7,727,272,73 per season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Players have to be on LTIR to go have the potential cap savings - 1 player is on there now (believed to be Dandenault.) Habs are very limited in current cap space, and suggesting that some of the callups would be going down if such a deal were to occur would be erroneous; if 3 or 4 players were to go, the callups would have to stay to hold down the roster positions. Lecavalier's salary by season after this: 09-10: 10,000,000 10-11: 10,000,000 11-12: 10,000,000 12-13: 10,000,000 13-14: 10,000,000 14-15: 10,000,000 15-16: 10,000,000 16-17: 8,500,000 17-18: 4,000,000 18-19: 1,500,000 19-20: 1,000,000 Last 3 years are buyout years, as a salary cap credit may be available to whoever has him at the time. (Please don't ask me to elaborate, as it'd take hours to do the tables up...) Cap hit for these seasons would be $7,727,272,73 per season. that 73cents might hurt us bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) Still, the bottom line is that this deal could work. Mackenize is an unimpeachable source. This isn't fan fantasy, this is by all accounts an actual offer Gainey's made, and the right people are saying it checks out. Maybe my early attitude that Bob is destined to be out-bid was unduly pessimistic. When I first heard this rumour last week (Ron Fournier on CKAC Sports) I thought it was just some crazy shit Ron was spewing. But now that Mackenzie is on the bandwagon, I have to think there might actually be some truth to it. Mackenzie is probably the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to trades, and usually he's right. I was also relieved to read that Komisarek is not part of the discussion! If the trade rumours are correct...that is: Lecavalier for Higgins, PLex, Subban, Gorges and a 1st round pick, I say do it. I'd hate to see Higgins and Gorges go, but you don't get a superstar for nothing. If they ask for the same players with 2 first round picks, I think Bob will say no. There's no use in selling the entire farm for one player, no matter how good he is! IF we do end up trading Gorges, we will definitely need to pick up another d-man somewhere! One thing is for certain...the next few days/weeks will be damn interesting for Habs fans!!! I'm giddy like a little school girl just thinking about the possibility of seeing Vinny in the Bleu, Blanc et Rouge!! Edited January 13, 2009 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 when the hell did gorges come into this I never heard his name in any rumours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafikz Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I don't mind having Vinny, but I like Pleks, and Gorges has been outstanding. Moreover, Habs are already looking for a D-man, so if we lose Gorges, we'll have to replace him; so we'll be looking for 2 blueliners. And McDonagh is not ready. And O'Byrne and Brisebois still suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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