Permanent Rumour Thread

[CoRvInA]

Basically, your argument is that Bob had 'no choice' but to sign 'sloppy seconds' and we should be happy about it. OK. How about considering Wamsley's view that Bob would have been able to bag FRANCHISE PLAYERS if only he'd waited for the cap to shrink? In any case, your post is so incoherent as a response to mine that I don't even know where to begin responding to it, since it doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I was saying in that post.

Yes slightly Incoherent I agree (too tired or too pissed off when posting) But it was spot on to answer the preposterous theory that we screwed our chances in signing any of the untouchables mentioned before!!!

So once again.... You support the fact that it would have been best not to sign anyone for more than 2 years, nor have traded for Gomez. Because of the possibility that teams would have to trade their big guns…

Fine, assuming Gainey would not have been fired for doing such a dim-witted thing:

1) We would have the same horrible or worse season as last year (we might have given one or two year contracts to Koivu Tanguay and Kovalev had they accepted)

2) Arguably the same unhealthy conditions surrounding the team would have continued this season

3) and of course the Shrinking in the cap would not affect us either right? HAha Those 25 mil would turn into 20 or 15 mil

but on the bright side…. maybe not doing anything would mean we would finish last for a few years and get the first picks… LIKE ALL THOSE TEAMS HAD to get those players!

[CoRvInA]

I have always fully supported the New Jersey Devil model, and with the hiring of Carbo thought this was the plan. It still may be the plan,

and this may be a huge over reaction on my part.

Until their defense steps up and earns their D, I will be referring to them as the

Montreal Canaiens.

Why is it hard to understand that the Habs and WHoever is their GM don't have the same conditions that other GM's and teams have

No one wants to help the HABS and will rather do it with a team that Has Continuously sucked in another conference!!

And believing Komi was giving clear signs to leave before trade deadline HAHAHA!!! enough already!

[Habsy]

Waiting for franchise players to become available because of cap problems is preposterous.I don't know how else to put it. The cap would have to drop to levels unheard of in pro sports. Imagine Bob trying to explain that to whomever he has to answer to, he'd be fired on the spot. I can't believe my two favourite contributors to this site, Cucumber and Wamsley, are even entertaining this notion. Crosby, Ovechkin, Nash, Luongo??? This is not the arena football league.

[Chris]

I thought i was your favourite poster?

I think BG did well in the UFA market. The current problem is the team has only played 4 games together. Yes, we all know Gomez is overpaid, we also know Gionta, Cammallarr, Mara would not have signed in Montreal unless Gomez was there. I assume without the other signings Moen would not have signed either.

Who had more goals The Cammi on the UFA market? Players like Gaborik, Hossa (may have) also signed for more money then Cammi.

The other problem with the team as I see it, the young players aren't up to par with the new talent brought in. It doesn't mean the team won't gel and become better.

I am fine with all the moves, Pleks and his salary will be gone also, leaving a spot for another youngster, trade or UFA signing.

Unless the habs get a top 5 pick, they aren't going to steal a franchise player.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Waiting for franchise players to become available because of cap problems is preposterous.I don't know how else to put it. The cap would have to drop to levels unheard of in pro sports. Imagine Bob trying to explain that to whomever he has to answer to, he'd be fired on the spot. I can't believe my two favourite contributors to this site, Cucumber and Wamsley, are even entertaining this notion. Crosby, Ovechkin, Nash, Luongo??? This is not the arena football league.

I am not advocating Wamsley's argument. I'm saying I see its force. I also maintain that if the cap doesn't drop by too much OR if it does drop and teams nonetheless retain their franchise players, then we're probably doing all right. I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't pretend to know how it will all play out.

My bottom line is that there is no substitute for developing elite talent from within, especially in a cap system. I *thought* we had an elite development system. It is now clear that we don't. Most of our problems stem from this. I've criticized Bob's asset management and I stand by it, but the deeper problem is just that the young talent has been something of a mirage all along.

Wamsley may be a bit unfair in expecting the Habs' brass to have prophetic insight about how players will pan out and to deal the ones that won't. I don't think ANYONE in hockey knew two years ago that Pleks would bomb like he did, or that Kosty would flatline like he has. I don't believe the Red Wings would have been any better at these predictions. (The one area where Gainey has acted with 100% certainty in the player's arc of progression has been Price...and he's been burned). We idealize the profession of GMing when we imagine that GMs possess some secret knowledge about how players will pan out. Certainly there are more and less educated estimates, but nobody really knows.

On the other hand, we *did* have a lot of good young wingers and Wamsley is fair to say that an elite GM would trade surplus in order to get help elsewhere. Higgins, one of the Kostitsyns - they might have been traded for help at C or what have you. Granted, Higgins brought Gomez. So Bob did pull the trigger. Trouble is, he waited until Higgins's value was so low that other prospects had to be thrown in. Which is Wamsley's point, I suppose.

Me, I think Year 100 f*cked up a lot of things. The normal approach in a disastrous season like that would be to trade Komisarek and maybe some others at the deadline and get fully value back; after January there was never any hope of a Cup run, so this is how it should have gone. But Gainey simply couldn't do that, not in this city in that year. The result is a dead loss, all those UFAs leaving town instead of being traded for VALUE. Imagine what Bob could have accomplished if he'd been willing to purge before the deadline! Great picks, great prospects - the mind reels.

At the end of the day we have a likeable nucleus that is talented and waaaay overpaid (Gomez + Gionta's overpayments = one $4 million hockey player, perhaps that missing 2nd liner). We can win the Cup within the lifespan of this core IF Price develops and IF cheap young players emerge as highly effective complements to that core. Given that, what really bugs me is that Pacioretty, D'agostini, Weber, Chipchura, Maxwell ALL look like mediocre players at this point, while two players who we KNOW can play - the Bros. Kostitsyn - are such basket cases that we cannot rely on them. Can you look at our young talent and say with ANY confidence at all that we've got a promising second line ready to blossom within the next three years? That any of these players will be top-4 defencemen in the next three years? It's, yet again, player development that's the real problem.

Edited October 8, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Chris]

Do you consider Kovalev to be overpaid? How about Gaborik? I would take Gionta for the same money.

Pacioretty is a real goog prospect, he will be fine, he is only 20.

Chipchura's injury slowed him down, literallly.

I do agree with you about some trades BG didn't make, Souray would have landed alot. Hindsight is 20/20. BG moved some assests to get a team he thought was good enough for a run, the problem was is the team never went to the next level .

Higgins is a third line guy with great speed and an apparant drinking or drug problem. Moving him wasn't a big loss.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Do you consider Kovalev to be overpaid? How about Gaborik? I would take Gionta for the same money.

Pacioretty is a real goog prospect, he will be fine, he is only 20.

Chipchura's injury slowed him down, literallly.

I do agree with you about some trades BG didn't make, Souray would have landed alot. Hindsight is 20/20. BG moved some assests to get a team he thought was good enough for a run, the problem was is the team never went to the next level .

Higgins is a third line guy with great speed and an apparant drinking or drug problem. Moving him wasn't a big loss.

Yeah, there's been a whole heap of bad luck too. Emelin and Valentenko's refusal to report to Hamilton has been huge, especially Emelin. If all the hype was to be believed, had he come over two or three years ago, he might be in our top-4 by now. Maybe Valentenko could be in our top-6. Perezhogin is another talent we lost for nothing and we'll now never know if he had top-6 potential; I thought he did. Chipchura might have evolved into a heart-and-soul guy if not for that injury. Even Grabovski: how could the Habs have anticipated that he'd end up in some sort of pissing war with Koivu and the Kostityns and thus 'have' to get shipped out of town? And now Sergei Kostitsyn has turned out to be a f*ck-up. It's a sad litany.

As for overpaying, yeah, other teams overpay too. Trouble is, we're overpaying for a core that is strong but nowhere near among the best in the league - at face value, not a recipe for a championship in a cap system. BUT!!! I don't want to be mistaken for bashing the new team. I like it and think we *can* win with it some other elements go right. But it shouldn't have been this way. We should have had Mike Richards and/or Carter and/or Bobby Ryan and/or Getzlaf and/or Parise and/or Phaneuf, players like THAT developed within our system, just as other teams do. THAT's the kind of core we should be supplementing with UFAs.

Edited October 8, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[CoRvInA]

Yeah, there's been a whole heap of bad luck too. Emelin and Valentenko's refusal to report to Hamilton has been huge, especially Emelin. If all the hype was to be believed, had he come over two or three years ago, he might be in our top-4 by now. Maybe Valentenko could be in our top-6. Perezhogin is another talent we lost for nothing and we'll now never know if he had top-6 potential; I thought he did. Chipchura might have evolved into a heart-and-soul guy if not for that injury. Even Grabovski: how could the Habs have anticipated that he'd end up in some sort of pissing war with Koivu and the Kostityns and thus 'have' to get shipped out of town? And now Sergei Kostitsyn has turned out to be a f*ck-up. It's a sad litany.

As for overpaying, yeah, other teams overpay too. Trouble is, we're overpaying for a core that is strong but nowhere near among the best in the league - at face value, not a recipe for a championship in a cap system. BUT!!! I don't want to be mistaken for bashing the new team. I like it and think we *can* win with it some other elements go right. But it shouldn't have been this way. We should have had Mike Richards and/or Carter and/or Bobby Ryan and/or Getzlaf and/or Parise and/or Phaneuf, players like THAT developed within our system, just as other teams do. THAT's the kind of core we should be supplementing with UFAs.

This too funny... ChicoutimI... Je te le jure... that Im not actively against you! au contraire this is what this site is for non?!!

To start, I appreciate that you have lessened the Wamsley theories..lol ok ok..!!! Hindsight is 20/20 (with regards to Souray Komi etc... wont go there again) and that was mentioned by Chris, goodman!

AND I FULLY agree with you with the bad development and thats my theory that when Gainey fired Carbo and brought in Ron lever to MTL it was in part to GET LEVER OUT OF HAMILTON for the sake of the kids!

But I will disagree with the VAlentenko and EMELIN thing... GAIney and co were Hogging the talent (or what seemed to be) and mismanaged thinking the youngsters would obey and comply!... BG and co were misinformed about the status and spirit of the awaiting prospects... and several Prospects have been over inflated and made to believe that THEY were ready to be in the NHL and seeing that very few make it to the big club of course they will look for other options. The exSoviets had options, and chose their destinies, yet the Chipchuras D'agostini's and co (regardless if they were not as good as they seemed to be) haven't developed (be it coaching, be it mismanagement)

IMO there are scars from the mismanagement of our prospects... THEY are not 100% mentally!.. You can't but think Chipchura feels sick to his stomach when he sees his cohort already playing in the NHL?

Again it's not entirely his fault but we were so focused on the Habs troubles we unfortunately lost track of the prospects and I'm very happy to see what has happened in Hamilton... Alex Henry is captain of the bullDogs btw.

Edited October 8, 2009 by CoRvInA

[Colin]

Don't let this dip into flamethrowing etc. Best discussion on the boards in a long, long time. A mod should pull out the relevant posts and set it up as its own discussion outside the rumour thread so people who don't check out this thread can get on board.

[BTH]

So we keep Hamrlik at 5 million until he's 45 years old? In the same paragraph you have us trading all our best players? For what? All our spectacular young guns that recquire big contracts? You are well aware that we can't get free agents here, unless we overpay. You're also well aware that we haven't drafted very well, essential in a cap world. All the wealthy teams are in trouble, if the cap falls like some of you are predicting. Gomez makes too much, that's about the only problem we have.

Hamrlik can walk at the end of his contract. That's 5.5 million off the books... but it's also our #2 defenseman off the books. If we want to remain as good, we'll need to replace him. Weber, O'Byrne and Subban don't really cut it. They are too young to be counted on as anything more than a 6th d-man. Then there's Mara, whose contract expires at the end of the year. He's more easily replaced but there aren't many players out there that can fill his shoes for his salary. Even if our prospects develop really quickly and we can replace Hammer and Mara with two of Weber, O'Byrne and Subban, the money saved in those downgrades will all be spent in retaining Price, Halak and Plekanec.

We have the ability to choose our priorities - e.g. choose to spend the money on Price rather than Hamrlik - but either way, we're going to be losing people, and certainly not gaining people.

We're locked into a core of Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, Markov and Price (for better or worse). Barring a blockbuster trade or a top 5 draft choice, our team will be these five + a decent supporting cast, never any star players.

To me, it isn't an ideal five to be locked into. Only two of them are proven, consistent top line players. We retain the potential to win a Cup - Pittsburgh just won with a mediocre team, but with a more reliable five (Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Gonchar, Fleury) than we have - if Martin can get these guys playing with some order AND if Price becomes the saviour. Everything really is invested in Price.

And unfortunately, it seems to me like the supporting cast we have this season is as good as this five is ever going to have in Montreal. Yet our chances at a Cup still seem so far away because we're still lacking the order and we're still lacking the elite goaltending.

[bar]

One thing people keep bringing up is the core of a few select teams, who were either bad for so many years (Pitts, Wash) or who had great trades and drafting (Philly, Detroit), the majority of the league does not have the core close to what Pitts, Wash, Philly has. Another thing is the fishbowl that is a big market like Toronto or Montreal, you cannot have a core develop in these markets unless they gel right away, we are so impatient we want to dump our core already 4 games into a season.

Posters have pointed out a Crosby/Malkin/Ovekchin type player as part of the core, those players are very very rare and come along usually once in 5 years, we are spoiled as fans to have such great talent in those players all playing at the same time.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

One thing people keep bringing up is the core of a few select teams, who were either bad for so many years (Pitts, Wash) or who had great trades and drafting (Philly, Detroit), the majority of the league does not have the core close to what Pitts, Wash, Philly has. Another thing is the fishbowl that is a big market like Toronto or Montreal, you cannot have a core develop in these markets unless they gel right away, we are so impatient we want to dump our core already 4 games into a season.

Posters have pointed out a Crosby/Malkin/Ovekchin type player as part of the core, those players are very very rare and come along usually once in 5 years, we are spoiled as fans to have such great talent in those players all playing at the same time.

Sorry, but this is just excuse-making. I agree that Pittburgh is a false parallel because any fool GM can assemble superstars if he finishes last overall five years in a row. But the Philadelphia example is telling. Bob Gainey's JOB is not just to be an OK general manager and assemble an OK team. His job is to WIN THE STANLEY CUP. The way he explicitly set out to do that was by excellence at player development. Sadly, the results have been VASTLY inferior to Philadelphia (and probably Anaheim and Boston too, off the top of my head).

That is a serious criticism and it's 100% legitimate to ask: why not us? Why aren't WE the ones with Carter and Richards down the middle? Why can't WE produce a Dennis Wideman or Phil Kessel or Milan Lucic? Where is OUR Bobby Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf? There is no good reason that we don't have such players; the awful truth is that either our drafting or our player development has been inferior to those of elite teams. This is why we are not an elite team, and unlikely to become one unless Price excels and everything else goes right. Even Vancouver, for chrissakes, is able to produce a Bieksa and Edler, arguably top-4 D-men who stepped in as rookies and brought vital contributions to their club from Day One. GAINEY HAS FAILED IN THIS RESPECT. Full stop. No excuses, no BS, no more loser talk, none of this 'aw, only a few clubs can do what Philly does.' It's a fact.

Edited October 9, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Habsfan]

That is a serious criticism and it's 100% legitimate to ask: why not us? Why aren't WE the ones with Carter and Richards down the middle? Why can't WE produce a Dennis Wideman or Phil Kessel or Milan Lucic? Where is OUR Bobby Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf? There is no good reason that we don't have such players; the awful truth is that either our drafting or our player development has been inferior to those of elite teams. This is why we are not an elite team, and unlikely to become one unless Price excels and everything else goes right. Even Vancouver, for chrissakes, is able to produce a Bieksa and Edler, arguably top-4 D-men who stepped in as rookies and brought vital contributions to their club from Day One. GAINEY HAS FAILED IN THIS RESPECT. Full stop. No excuses, no BS, no more loser talk, none of this 'aw, only a few clubs can do what Philly does.' It's a fact

Good post, I definitely agree. Why didn't we draft Simon Gagné or Jeff Carter or Mike Richards or milan Lucic??? They were all available when the habs took other players!

I have to say, this is one of the better discussions we've had in a while! Keep it up boys, this is good stuff!

[huzer]

Seriously, we're doing the hindsight thing AGAIN? You're right, drafting and devolpment hasn't been the Habs strong point, since...umm...still thinking...

[alexstream]

Seriously, we're doing the hindsight thing AGAIN? You're right, drafting and devolpment hasn't been the Habs strong point, since...umm...still thinking...

we should start a new forum:

hindsighthabsworld.net

There would be a topic for every transaction and every draft pick.

FUN FUN FUN

[BTH]

Sorry, but this is just excuse-making. I agree that Pittburgh is a false parallel because any fool GM can assemble superstars if he finishes last overall five years in a row. But the Philadelphia example is telling. Bob Gainey's JOB is not just to be an OK general manager and assemble an OK team. His job is to WIN THE STANLEY CUP. The way he explicitly set out to do that was by excellence at player development. Sadly, the results have been VASTLY inferior to Philadelphia (and probably Anaheim and Boston too, off the top of my head).

That is a serious criticism and it's 100% legitimate to ask: why not us? Why aren't WE the ones with Carter and Richards down the middle? Why can't WE produce a Dennis Wideman or Phil Kessel or Milan Lucic? Where is OUR Bobby Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf? There is no good reason that we don't have such players; the awful truth is that either our drafting or our player development has been inferior to those of elite teams. This is why we are not an elite team, and unlikely to become one unless Price excels and everything else goes right. Even Vancouver, for chrissakes, is able to produce a Bieksa and Edler, arguably top-4 D-men who stepped in as rookies and brought vital contributions to their club from Day One. GAINEY HAS FAILED IN THIS RESPECT. Full stop. No excuses, no BS, no more loser talk, none of this 'aw, only a few clubs can do what Philly does.' It's a fact.

We had prospects like this (one of the top systems in the NHL) but all of them stagnated once they hit the NHL. Perezhogin, Plekanec, Higgins, Latendresse.... these were all considered good prospects and likely top 6 forwards down the road. Timmins and Gainey were lauded for selecting them. They were on pace to do it and then.... never took it to the next level. That's a development/coaching issue. I can't blame it on Gainey.

But I can blame Gainey for throwing all our money away this year and putting us in an, at best, stagnant position for the future. We are trapped. There is no way of making core additions, no star UFA coming to fill our wholes after the season, not even any way of retaining the team we already have. Our only means of improving significantly (without trading Metropolit for Toews) is through the development of Price, Kostitsyn, O'Byrne, Weber, Pacioretty, Latendresse, Plekanec... I no longer am that comfortable relying on these guys becoming stars.

[CoRvInA]

We had prospects like this (one of the top systems in the NHL) but all of them stagnated once they hit the NHL. Perezhogin, Plekanec, Higgins, Latendresse.... these were all considered good prospects and likely top 6 forwards down the road. Timmins and Gainey were lauded for selecting them. They were on pace to do it and then.... never took it to the next level. That's a development/coaching issue. I can't blame it on Gainey.

But I can blame Gainey for throwing all our money away this year and putting us in an, at best, stagnant position for the future. We are trapped. There is no way of making core additions, no star UFA coming to fill our wholes after the season, not even any way of retaining the team we already have. Our only means of improving significantly (without trading Metropolit for Toews) is through the development of Price, Kostitsyn, O'Byrne, Weber, Pacioretty, Latendresse, Plekanec... I no longer am that comfortable relying on these guys becoming stars.

RESP: Just like we said... And it wasn't The habs org saying these were top prospects.. Hockey News and all the other Vanity Fair like Hockey magazines had us 2nd among prospects overall... So what happened? what's the difference maker between Perezhogin and Derek Roy or Mike Cammalleri? Chipchura and Travis Zajac? A Kostitsyn and Jeff Carter? Cory Urquhart and Patrice Bergeron... and so on...

Throwing money away is too harsh in my opinion. In a stagnant position I agree BUT WE HAD NO OTHER CHOICE, we were, IMO, among the top 3 teams this UFA summer. On a positive side it makes BG and co., Focus on the real matter at hand PRospects!!!! Hamilton and Prospects, Development and Prospects, Ice Dogs and Prospects, AND determine who are salvageable and who are not, FInd ways of getting the right people to make sure we dont draft anymore lemons and MAKE SURE WE DONT TURN ANY OF THEM INTO LEMONS!

[Colin]

Fascinating question and the best one of the Gainey reign, IMO:

Did we draft poorly, or were we incapable of bringing those kids to fruition properly? Since our picks were, by and large, applauded by the hockey community, one would tend to lean towards the developmental incapabilities of the Canadiens. However, dig further and you see a litany of coaches with moderately differing philosophies and none seem to have been able to get the job done in terms of raising these kids. So, is Montreal that bad at setting up a developmental system, or is this symptomatic of a larger issue?

A thought: are kids more prone to failure when stepping from the AHL into the pressure cooker of Montreal? Is, in fact, the 'culture' (and by culture, I don't necessarily mean only French, but the larger culture of expectation, history, and tradition) something that overwhelms young players? Should *gasp* Montreal focus on drafting those who potentially have the ability to deal with this having lived in it their whole lives? Would a concentration on French players make a difference?

Latendresse and Lapierre have spoken about this issue to a degree and, while they haven't succeeded 'beyond all expectations,' neither have they failed. Laps is a solid NHLer who has become, I believe, more than he should have. Lats, while underwhelming so far, has seen progression and is still just a wee lad. Of course there can be no definitive answer from these two for years to come, but I believe this train of thought is worthy of more consideration.

Probably more worthy, though, is a detailed look into the systems that consistently bring successful players into the NHL. What critical differences exist?

It's seeming more and more evident that there is something fundamentally flawed in paradise and it would behoove the Habs to take a long look at their apparatus.

[Habsfan]

Did we draft poorly, or were we incapable of bringing those kids to fruition properly?

I think there's a little bit of both!

[bar]

Sorry, but this is just excuse-making. I agree that Pittburgh is a false parallel because any fool GM can assemble superstars if he finishes last overall five years in a row. But the Philadelphia example is telling. Bob Gainey's JOB is not just to be an OK general manager and assemble an OK team. His job is to WIN THE STANLEY CUP. The way he explicitly set out to do that was by excellence at player development. Sadly, the results have been VASTLY inferior to Philadelphia (and probably Anaheim and Boston too, off the top of my head).

That is a serious criticism and it's 100% legitimate to ask: why not us? Why aren't WE the ones with Carter and Richards down the middle? Why can't WE produce a Dennis Wideman or Phil Kessel or Milan Lucic? Where is OUR Bobby Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf? There is no good reason that we don't have such players; the awful truth is that either our drafting or our player development has been inferior to those of elite teams. This is why we are not an elite team, and unlikely to become one unless Price excels and everything else goes right. Even Vancouver, for chrissakes, is able to produce a Bieksa and Edler, arguably top-4 D-men who stepped in as rookies and brought vital contributions to their club from Day One. GAINEY HAS FAILED IN THIS RESPECT. Full stop. No excuses, no BS, no more loser talk, none of this 'aw, only a few clubs can do what Philly does.' It's a fact.

CC, I agree to what you say, but I was trying to phrase that not everytime is doing this, it's more about what those teams do right, rather than what we are doing wrong? Is the spotlight too much in hockey rich market like ours that causes prospects to wilt? I think the more beneficial thing to do is to try to find out what others are doing, if it is the spotlight issue, I don't know if we can do anything about it.

You do bring up a lot of points that I cannot counter, in regards to why not us.

[CoRvInA]

Fascinating question and the best one of the Gainey reign, IMO:

Did we draft poorly, or were we incapable of bringing those kids to fruition properly? Since our picks were, by and large, applauded by the hockey community, one would tend to lean towards the developmental incapabilities of the Canadiens. However, dig further and you see a litany of coaches with moderately differing philosophies and none seem to have been able to get the job done in terms of raising these kids. So, is Montreal that bad at setting up a developmental system, or is this symptomatic of a larger issue?

A thought: are kids more prone to failure when stepping from the AHL into the pressure cooker of Montreal? Is, in fact, the 'culture' (and by culture, I don't necessarily mean only French, but the larger culture of expectation, history, and tradition) something that overwhelms young players? Should *gasp* Montreal focus on drafting those who potentially have the ability to deal with this having lived in it their whole lives? Would a concentration on French players make a difference?

Latendresse and Lapierre have spoken about this issue to a degree and, while they haven't succeeded 'beyond all expectations,' neither have they failed. Laps is a solid NHLer who has become, I believe, more than he should have. Lats, while underwhelming so far, has seen progression and is still just a wee lad. Of course there can be no definitive answer from these two for years to come, but I believe this train of thought is worthy of more consideration.

Probably more worthy, though, is a detailed look into the systems that consistently bring successful players into the NHL. What critical differences exist?

It's seeming more and more evident that there is something fundamentally flawed in paradise and it would behoove the Habs to take a long look at their apparatus.

Yes Colin, I've mentioned it before I really believe that sport shrinks are needed to keep a better in depth eye on the prospects, but You've taken it a step further.. 1) Is there an optimal psychological mindset in drafting a prospect? 2) is the Mtl Environment overwhelming for certain players? 3) is it even more distracting for a prospect when just being drafted in MTL makes you a celebrity and (Gets you free passes to the Qebecoises)... Really!!! Its probably not the same for a Phoenix coyote prospect, and I would imagine alot of Canadian teams have that problem... (I think thats why Calgary and Edmonton have Whip bearing coaching staffs)

[Zowpeb]

I think there is also ample evidence that would show many french prospects have fried in the Montreal pressure cooker...I think you've simply picked out 2 prospects over the past decade to try and make a point...go back over the last 15 years and you'll see MANY francophone/hometown draft picks that have crashed and burned. Ever wonder why Ribeiro became a better player when he left? Look at these guys: Carle (2nd round '07), Urquhart (2nd round '03), Chouinard (1st round, '98) and Ribeiro (2nd round, '98), Baumgartner (2nd round, '97)...you just can't pick 2 that panned out and say that they need to draft french guys because they can handle the media better as locals.

I also think the Habs have drafted just fine under Gainey and Timmins, especially in the later rounds...

Where Gainey needs to take some heat, as mentioned by some, is on the player development side. He is just as responsible for bringing in the right coaches, trainers, etc...but he put coaches in charge who are not great at player development. Frankly, I don't think Martin has a great record on player development either...but I suppose that's up for argument too. Players like Latendresse should NEVER have been pushed onto the big club...I would argue he is BEHIND in his development as a result of the Habs bowing to media/fanboy pressure. The same argument could be made with Price. Let these guys learn to dominate in the AHL for at least a full season before throwing them into the fire. Instead the Habs have routinely rushed players along...

If the Habs had better luck bringing over some of their Russian picks they'd be a different club right now too...jmho.

[Colin]

Look at these guys: Carle (2nd round '07), Urquhart (2nd round '03), Chouinard (1st round, '98) and Ribeiro (2nd round, '98), Baumgartner (2nd round, '97)...you just can't pick 2 that panned out and say that they need to draft french guys because they can handle the media better as locals.

I also think the Habs have drafted just fine under Gainey and Timmins, especially in the later rounds...

Let these guys learn to dominate in the AHL for at least a full season before throwing them into the fire. Instead the Habs have routinely rushed players along...

Well played, Zowpeb, well played. The thing that is most startling to me about the apparently deficient development is that, for the longest time, Montreal was the model on how to develop youngsters. I can't quote a source because it's from the time before pens and tape recorders were invented, but I recall very specifically commentary that said Montreal had the proper model on player development. They kept them in the minors for long enough to properly develop, and only when ready did they release the kids to the NHL. It stuck with me because every time another team puts a player in the NHL at 18, I still, to this day, say to myself that they risk hurting the player and that they should follow the Montreal example.

Suffice it to say, my brain hurts trying to figure this one out. Whatever the case, the longer this discussion goes on, and the better the revelant points produced, the more I'm certain that there is a fundamental problem with the Canadiens. Ever since the Oil beat us in the playoffs in the early 80's, this team has dipped to the mediocre. Our Cup in '86 was down to goaltending and the one in '89 came as a result of the best teams being eliminated before they had to meet us.

Perhaps all those deals I made with the devil were...... REAL! Aaaaaaarrrrrrggghhhhh...

...ahem...

But seriously, Montreal has bathed in the waters of mediocrity for a very long time. Where's the hitch in the system? Is it the GM? Higher than that? Are we just THAT unlucky? Plenty can be explained from the time Roy was traded until Savard took over as GM: we had loonies running the ship. But other than that?

Der is sumsing rotten een Montreealll. Eet ees up to us to find eet!

<scary music>

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I know nothing about it, but my own guess is that the Habs aren't doing the right kind of psychological profiling of these guys. There must have been a way to get some sense of whether guys like Emelin and Valetenko had any deep desire to play here, for instance. I know Gainey had sized up Higgins and Price as men of iron character - what happened? Just a thought.

Meanwhile, amusing rumour of the day:

http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/370134/posts/40063

Boyes? Sure!

[BCHabnut]

Can a mod crop all the Gainey stuff and put it in JackP's fire Gainey thread? This is a runour thread, not Gainey thread.