Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Subban Gorges Markov Hainsey Boullion Tinordi Diaz.. Or Subban Tinordi Markov Gorges Boullion Diaz Drewiske You tell me.. Add Emelin to that 1st group.. Solid. It'd be like making a mid season trade when Emelin comes back. Subban Emelin Hainsey Gorges Markov Tinordi.... I think all of the defensive woes we're thinking of are going to be solved by PK playing major minutes. I expect he'll play 25-30 on average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Chances Tokarski is traded for a gritty forward prospect? I wouldn't mind a guy in the system who can play the role of the jackass. Ryan White's the only jackass playing for the Habs... it might be good to have another in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 Chances Tokarski is traded for a gritty forward prospect? It's a possibility. I don't think he'll go for another goalie. If I had to guess, the priority right now would be a d-man as the depth chart is pretty thin in Hamilton now (and will be really thin in a couple of years). If Tokarski's value is down though, a bottom six forward/agitator could be the type of return he'd fetch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Man I was so pumped when we traded for Torkarski... what is this teams love affair with Mayer about???????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 All those defensive line combos didn't have Markov with a kid. Markov needs to be with a kid. See: the successful development of recent defensive kids in Montreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 All those defensive line combos didn't have Markov with a kid. Markov needs to be with a kid. See: the successful development of recent defensive kids in Montreal. What kids are you talking about? Markov can't be paired with bealieu, unless its on the PP and Tinordi is too slow to cover for Markov's defensive hiccups. I'm still thinking a trade happens for another D-man though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 What kids are you talking about? Markov can't be paired with bealieu, unless its on the PP and Tinordi is too slow to cover for Markov's defensive hiccups. I'm still thinking a trade happens for another D-man though. Tinordi isn't too slow to cover his mistakes, Tinordi's footspeed is impressive for his size. Plus Gill PK used to be a solid pairing... Tinordi can skate circles around Gill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Tinordi isn't too slow to cover his mistakes, Tinordi's footspeed is impressive for his size. Plus Gill PK used to be a solid pairing... Tinordi can skate circles around Gill. P.K's skating is worlds above Markov's. The opposing wingers would have a hay day with a Tinordi Markov pairing. I'm far from a fan of Diaz, but a Markov Diaz pairing has worked at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Gorges - Subban Markov - Diaz Cube - Tinordi Once Emelin returns, Diaz would move to Cubes spot and Cube would head to the pressbox. I don't see Diaz lasting long if Beaulieu starts tearing up the AHL. Having a rookie third pairing sounds bad in theory but they have chemistry together and I think it'd actually make Montreal pretty deadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Gorges - Subban Markov - Diaz Cube - Tinordi Once Emelin returns, Diaz would move to Cubes spot and Cube would head to the pressbox. I don't see Diaz lasting long if Beaulieu starts tearing up the AHL. Having a rookie third pairing sounds bad in theory but they have chemistry together and I think it'd actually make Montreal pretty deadly. Yeah, I can't really see Diaz lasting too much longer. Did Tinordi and Beaulieu get paired up at all in Hamilton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Yeah, I can't really see Diaz lasting too much longer. Did Tinordi and Beaulieu get paired up at all in Hamilton? Diaz has started career on exact same pace as Markov, so may be a bit early to ship him out and Markov might be better one to go and free up more cap space? Tinordi may be better served to play big minutes in Hamilton and let Pateryn/Nygren play 6th/7th d-man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Diaz has started career on exact same pace as Markov, so may be a bit early to ship him out and Markov might be better one to go and free up more cap space? Tinordi may be better served to play big minutes in Hamilton and let Pateryn/Nygren play 6th/7th d-man? I see Markov getting resigned if he continues producing, probably for $4.5M for 2-3 years. I don't think Diaz will be as solid defensively or offensively as Markov has been his entire career. I see Diaz as a poor man's Markov. He has a great mentor to do so. I think Diaz needs 1 more year with us and Markov to produce like he did last season, then we trade him. Two consecutive years producing, being a PP quarterback, and we will get a good return for him. I honestly don't see Diaz being more than a 2nd pair defenceman at best, but will thrive on a team that can afford to have him on the 3rd pair and a PP specialist. Too bad with another good year producing he will be up for a contract we won't be able to afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 I see Markov getting resigned if he continues producing, probably for $4.5M for 2-3 years. I don't think Diaz will be as solid defensively or offensively as Markov has been his entire career. I see Diaz as a poor man's Markov. He has a great mentor to do so. I think Diaz needs 1 more year with us and Markov to produce like he did last season, then we trade him. Two consecutive years producing, being a PP quarterback, and we will get a good return for him. I honestly don't see Diaz being more than a 2nd pair defenceman at best, but will thrive on a team that can afford to have him on the 3rd pair and a PP specialist. Too bad with another good year producing he will be up for a contract we won't be able to afford. I'm just worried that a full 82 game season is really going to take its toll on Markov. I think this year will dictate what happens to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I'm just worried that a full 82 game season is really going to take its toll on Markov. I think this year will dictate what happens to him. Markov played 75 total games last year, inlcuding his KHL time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I see Markov getting resigned if he continues producing, probably for $4.5M for 2-3 years. I don't think Diaz will be as solid defensively or offensively as Markov has been his entire career. I see Diaz as a poor man's Markov. He has a great mentor to do so. I think Diaz needs 1 more year with us and Markov to produce like he did last season, then we trade him. Two consecutive years producing, being a PP quarterback, and we will get a good return for him. I honestly don't see Diaz being more than a 2nd pair defenceman at best, but will thrive on a team that can afford to have him on the 3rd pair and a PP specialist. Too bad with another good year producing he will be up for a contract we won't be able to afford. Diaz is a reasonable player, but he has nowhere near the hand-eye, timing, or ability to cut out a play before it starts that Markov possesses. Had Markov been healthy, he would have won the Norris before PK. The Russian's defensive skills are consistently vastly underrated since he plays a "quiet" style and while he has lost a step, he could still be a #1 on a lot of teams, and on ours he's a clear #2 and league-wide a #2/3 guy overall. Discounting Markov because he took some time to re-acclimatize after essentially two years away from the game is understandable, but seems somewhat blind in my eyes. Now, will he come back and be *that* #2/3 guy this year? We'll see, but I have a feeling that, with good health, his adjustments will have him playing banner hockey for long stretches. If I were to categorize Diaz, I'd say he was a "squad" player - like they have in pro soccer. A guy who can play at the NHL level, but who will never really stand out regularly. Markov, on the other hand, is a subtle standout player. You have to really watch to see what he brings, but he's one of those quiet defensive types who plays way over what everyone thinks they're seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Markov should retire as a Habs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I love watching Markov play. He is a subtle but brilliant player. Agree with Trizz that he should retire as a Hab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Diaz is a reasonable player, but he has nowhere near the hand-eye, timing, or ability to cut out a play before it starts that Markov possesses. Had Markov been healthy, he would have won the Norris before PK. The Russian's defensive skills are consistently vastly underrated since he plays a "quiet" style and while he has lost a step, he could still be a #1 on a lot of teams, and on ours he's a clear #2 and league-wide a #2/3 guy overall. Discounting Markov because he took some time to re-acclimatize after essentially two years away from the game is understandable, but seems somewhat blind in my eyes. Now, will he come back and be *that* #2/3 guy this year? We'll see, but I have a feeling that, with good health, his adjustments will have him playing banner hockey for long stretches. If I were to categorize Diaz, I'd say he was a "squad" player - like they have in pro soccer. A guy who can play at the NHL level, but who will never really stand out regularly. Markov, on the other hand, is a subtle standout player. You have to really watch to see what he brings, but he's one of those quiet defensive types who plays way over what everyone thinks they're seeing. I think you're being hard on Diaz here - it kind of reminds me of attitudes about Streit before we let him walk. Despite his impressive point totals he was always too soft or not good enough in his own end, and he went on to be very successful elswhere. Now Diaz hasn't yet accomplished what Streit has, and may not turn out to be that caliber of player, but he's young for a defenseman and is still improving year to year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I think you're being hard on Diaz here - it kind of reminds me of attitudes about Streit before we let him walk. Despite his impressive point totals he was always too soft or not good enough in his own end, and he went on to be very successful elswhere. Now Diaz hasn't yet accomplished what Streit has, and may not turn out to be that caliber of player, but he's young for a defenseman and is still improving year to year. I was going to say the same thing. I understand the skepticism about Diaz - smallish, soft, the sort of D-man of which we seem to have a surplus - but you have to be careful with a guy who is still adjusting to the NHL game and who did take a step forward last season, relative to his rookie year. He does have skills and it's probably too soon to be assuming he has no long-term future with us. I for one could readily imagine him having a solid five or six years as a successful secondary offensive defenceman in the NHL. The combo of a declining Markov and a rising Beaulieu may squeeze him out - but don't be surprised if he goes on to have productive career in another jersey, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Diaz is a reasonable player, but he has nowhere near the hand-eye, timing, or ability to cut out a play before it starts that Markov possesses. Had Markov been healthy, he would have won the Norris before PK. The Russian's defensive skills are consistently vastly underrated since he plays a "quiet" style and while he has lost a step, he could still be a #1 on a lot of teams, and on ours he's a clear #2 and league-wide a #2/3 guy overall. Discounting Markov because he took some time to re-acclimatize after essentially two years away from the game is understandable, but seems somewhat blind in my eyes. Now, will he come back and be *that* #2/3 guy this year? We'll see, but I have a feeling that, with good health, his adjustments will have him playing banner hockey for long stretches. If I were to categorize Diaz, I'd say he was a "squad" player - like they have in pro soccer. A guy who can play at the NHL level, but who will never really stand out regularly. Markov, on the other hand, is a subtle standout player. You have to really watch to see what he brings, but he's one of those quiet defensive types who plays way over what everyone thinks they're seeing. Just want to point out our defense wasn't the best in the league last year. It was one of our weaknesses. Offense from the back end was a strength, but defense on the back end was a weakness. So saying Markov could be #1 on alot of teams, but #2 on ours is giving too much credit to our defense. P.K. is good, but not a top-10 defensive defenceman, overall he is, but in his own zone he isn't. If P.K. didn't have all those points he wouldn't of even got a nod for the Norris, look at Letang. Your assessment of Markov is mixed. He is capable of being great defensively and he doesn't play crash and bang defense, he plays a smart style of defense, like Lidstrom. Yet his speed was one of his biggest assets while playing defense, and that is diminished. Markov's speed is comparible to Chara's size when it comes to how important it is to how well each can play defense. The end of last season we saw Markov struggle, and he wasn't #1/#2 calibure during that time. I wouldn't chalk Markov up to anything more than a top-4 wildcard defenseman this season. His play defensively will be the thing that could take our defense from middle of the pak to top in the league. Last season was his first season since 2 bad knee injuries, and it went well. Either we're going to see the Markov that ended last season or the one that we all know. It's entirely possible he found the limitation of his knee and instead of pushing himself for a few good years, he might not push himself for a longer career. This will determine if we will see the top pair guy we all know, or just a top-6 veteran. I'm not saying this because I don't like the guy, he's one of my favorite Habs of all time. Just trying to put a realistic spin on him at this point in his career and with his injuries. Knee injuries are one of the worse for any athlete in any sport, he has 2 consecutively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 How did this thread turn into a Markov and Diaz discussion? This is for trade proposals... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I was going to say the same thing. I understand the skepticism about Diaz - smallish, soft, the sort of D-man of which we seem to have a surplus - but you have to be careful with a guy who is still adjusting to the NHL game and who did take a step forward last season, relative to his rookie year. He does have skills and it's probably too soon to be assuming he has no long-term future with us. I for one could readily imagine him having a solid five or six years as a successful secondary offensive defenceman in the NHL. The combo of a declining Markov and a rising Beaulieu may squeeze him out - but don't be surprised if he goes on to have productive career in another jersey, then. Absolutely. For whatever reason fans think that every player should be NHL ready when they put on the uniform. The truth be known, that very few are. Most players need at least a couple years apprenticeship at the NHL level (defensemen longer) , before we can begin to get an accurate assessment of their ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Absolutely. For whatever reason fans think that every player should be NHL ready when they put on the uniform. The truth be known, that very few are. Most players need at least a couple years apprenticeship at the NHL level (defensemen longer) , before we can begin to get an accurate assessment of their ability. The tendency to assume rookies are going to step in and be stars is widespread on boards like this, and it drives me crazy. That only happens in rare cases. Most of the time, you're looking at a frustrating, uneven learning curve, and this is particularly so of defencemen. Fans, though, tend to love untested rookies, precisely because they can project onto them all sorts of aspirations, unemcumbered by the hard truths. As for Markov, it's simple enough. The guy we saw last season had devolved into a somewhat one-dimensional defender - devastating on the power-play and good on offence, but with his defensive game compromised by an egregious lack of foot-speed. I would not be surprised to find him making the necessary adjustments and being more all-around effective this season (he is one of the smartest Habs of his era), but what we basically had there was a guy like Wisniewski or Souray rather than the Markov of old. Such a player would be a #1 defender only on a bad team, but he makes a hell of an asset if used correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The tendency to assume rookies are going to step in and be stars is widespread on boards like this, and it drives me crazy. That only happens in rare cases. Most of the time, you're looking at a frustrating, uneven learning curve, and this is particularly so of defencemen. Fans, though, tend to love untested rookies, precisely because they can project onto them all sorts of aspirations, unemcumbered by the hard truths. Damn right. Remember Frederick St-Denis' first NHL game ? After the game, on l'Antichambre, Michel Bergeron said, like talking for everyone, : "Everybody must agree that the Habs should send Emelin down to make a roster spot to St-Denis." I was like WTF !!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I originally suggested Diaz being traded in a package when Beaulieu was ready, not just whenever. If Beaulieu needs another year in the AHL hey that's fine, we can be patient. The notion of Subban not being a strong defensive defenceman is wrong and most stats, especially advanced, support him as bring good in his zone. Our scoring on the backend was top I the NHL. Defensively it could be better but if you watch other teams in the league, we were damn good. I'd put our second pair up against anyone in the league. Also will add I believe Tinordi is ready and once Emelin is ready, we will see a blueliner moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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