Permanent Trade Proposal Thread

[Neech]

As for "letting young players learn from their mistakes" at the NHL level, I hear this from fans all the time - and I don't believe that most of them actually mean what they say. We'll see how people feel if he goes through a bad patch and starts getting beaten on the outside or costing us goals in a tight playoff race. Past experience shows that at that point 99% of the fan base will turn on him and declare him a total failure, all the while pumping the tires of whichever totally-unproven rookie catches their eye next.

Yeah, it's typical sports fans' irrationality, which increases with the passion of the fanbase (which is why Habs fans often seem like huge idiots on bigger message boards). The sky is falling one week, we're a cup favourite the next. Player X is trash, let's throw him out; oh wait, he's playing well. Overvaluing rookies is a part of this, simply because we don't yet have enough information about them to make a good assessment, so the difference is made up with our imagination.

Tinordi looked good in the NHL, but you're right that the sample size was very small. He will have growing pains this year - it's a matter of how bad they'll be. If we had addressed our defensive problems in the offseason, he'd probably start the season in Hamilton to build up more professional experience. As it is he might end up in the pressbox after a few shaky performances, which is good for nobody.

Statements like MoLG's that started this discussion, however, are hyperbolic and untrue. We only need to look at Pacioretty to see a player who was struggling and had hit a wall in the NHL, and returned to the AHL to rework his approach with great success.

It is always better to learn in the NHL against NHL quality opponents than anything inferior.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I doubt Tinordi will spend any time in the press box. Once Therrien has made the decision he won't play, Tinordi will goto the AHL. A big part of Pacioretty's issue was that he wasn't getting top six minutes from Martin. He went to the AHL, got top six minutes and then went to the NHL to play top six minutes. Martin kept using him as a grinder. Doesn't change the fact that his progression in the league up to that point was better than a player who would only know AHL competition.

TRADE PROPOSALS!

I'd like to see Bergevin try a Desharnais/Moen/Diaz package and see what would be the best the Canadiens could get out of it. Probably not until 2014 though. Maybe wait for a team dealing with injuries. It would be just as good as the Gaborik package so I wonder if there'd be a playoff bubble team that would need more depth and would have a top forward or defenceman they'd be willing to unload to get it.

[Neech]

I doubt Tinordi will spend any time in the press box. Once Therrien has made the decision he won't play, Tinordi will goto the AHL. A big part of Pacioretty's issue was that he wasn't getting top six minutes from Martin. He went to the AHL, got top six minutes and then went to the NHL to play top six minutes. Martin kept using him as a grinder. Doesn't change the fact that his progression in the league up to that point was better than a player who would only know AHL competition.

So it was better for him to learn in the NHL until it wasn't. Doesn't sound like 'always' to me.

[DON]

I doubt Tinordi will spend any time in the press box. Once Therrien has made the decision he won't play, Tinordi will goto the AHL. A big part of Pacioretty's issue was that he wasn't getting top six minutes from Martin. He went to the AHL, got top six minutes and then went to the NHL to play top six minutes. Martin kept using him as a grinder. Doesn't change the fact that his progression in the league up to that point was better than a player who would only know AHL competition.

TRADE PROPOSALS!

I'd like to see Bergevin try a Desharnais/Moen/Diaz package and see what would be the best the Canadiens could get out of it. Probably not until 2014 though. Maybe wait for a team dealing with injuries. It would be just as good as the Gaborik package so I wonder if there'd be a playoff bubble team that would need more depth and would have a top forward or defenceman they'd be willing to unload to get it.

I might be looking to trade Markov before Diaz, but I just don't even see the need for any trades by Habs at present and doubt any will be made anytime soon

[bbp]

I might be looking to trade Markov before Diaz, but I just don't even see the need for any trades by Habs at present and doubt any will be made anytime soon

[Machine of Loving Grace]

So it was better for him to learn in the NHL until it wasn't. Doesn't sound like 'always' to me.

It wasn't about learning. I made that pretty clear. If Martin played Pacioretty in the top six, he never would have been sent down. It was all about convincing a stubborn coach to play an asset he had on his roster the right way.

[Neech]

It wasn't about learning. I made that pretty clear. If Martin played Pacioretty in the top six, he never would have been sent down. It was all about convincing a stubborn coach to play an asset he had on his roster the right way.

He wasn't playing well enough to earn top six minutes. He could get those in the AHL, which benefitted his learning curve.

Look, if you make absolute statements like 'it's always better' to learn to play in the NHL in a certain way, you're exaggerating. There are players on every roster that benefitted from extra time in the minors, and there are others that had less to learn in the lower leagues. Sometimes getting 10 minutes in the NHL is better than getting 20 in the AHL, sometimes it isn't.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This is one of those issues that seems to invite circular arguments and axiomatic reasoning. If you're flat-out convinced that every quality prospect should develop in the NHL rather than the minors, then cases where that obviously fails to happen can be blamed on exogenous factors. "It's the coach's fault for not playing him enough/using him correctly!" (Never thinking that if he was playing decently, the coach would play him). "The player was immature and that's why he sucked in the NHL" (never thinking that, had he been left to marinade in the minors, he would have been in a better environment to mature).

Obviously, a quality player who has nothing more to learn at the AHL level should either be made an NHLer or given up on as a big-league prospect. Other than that, there simply is no magical one-size-fits-all formula for developing youth. Some guys can indeed step into the big leagues at a very young age and learn on the fly. Others seem to lose confidence, stagnate, or get caught up in the glamour and money and lose the plot. It's a delicate question requiring an understanding of each individual player, and that's why I always hesitate to condemn teams for the decisions they take in this respect. It's an art, not a science. The only thing I insist on is that it's naive to expect rookies to step in and reliably deliver in key roles on an NHL team. It happens, but not enough that we should count on it. And too often, fans count on it.

[TheDriveFor25]

Read somewhere else a trade proposal of

Luongo, Burrows, and Edler to Montreal for Price, Pleks, and Beaulieu...

Not saying I love it.. but I don't hate it..

[lazy26]

Read somewhere else a trade proposal of

Luongo, Burrows, and Edler to Montreal for Price, Pleks, and Beaulieu...

Not saying I love it.. but I don't hate it..

Well I hate it.

I'm pretty high on Beaulieu's potential, and I don't think Lu or Burrows would be an upgrade over Pleks and Price.

[Guest Stogey24]

Well I hate it.

I'm pretty high on Beaulieu's potential, and I don't think Lu or Burrows would be an upgrade over Pleks and Price.

I hate it too. Beaulieu has good size and excellent skating ability. High ceiling for this kid.

Price is yet to hit his potential. With that being said though; I wouldn't be completely against a Luongo trade. Especially with Fucale in the system.

[JoeLassister]

Read somewhere else a trade proposal of

Luongo, Burrows, and Edler to Montreal for Price, Pleks, and Beaulieu...

Not saying I love it.. but I don't hate it..

This trade proposal has all the potential in the world to make us look like complete fools.

[TurdBurglar]

Read somewhere else a trade proposal of

Luongo, Burrows, and Edler to Montreal for Price, Pleks, and Beaulieu...

Not saying I love it.. but I don't hate it..

This would be something from the mind of Gainey.

Price has way too much potential and is still young, to consider moving him for anything other than a top player in return. If you break down the trade value wise:

Loungo and Price; Price has more value, hands down. There's a reason Loungo hasn't been traded from Vancouver as of yet.

Edler and Pleks; This is about even, would have give a slight edge to Vancouver as a top-pair defenceman is hard to aquire for cheap.

Burrows and Beaulieu: A 3rd line player for a furture top-4 defenceman that is ready or near ready. Bealieu has more value.

That trade would be a horribly unbalanced trade. Unless there's a prospect or a 1st coming back, there' no way in hell MB would do it.

[Guest Stogey24]

This would be something from the mind of Gainey.

Price has way too much potential and is still young, to consider moving him for anything other than a top player in return. If you break down the trade value wise:

Loungo and Price; Price has more value, hands down. There's a reason Loungo hasn't been traded from Vancouver as of yet.

Edler and Pleks; This is about even, would have give a slight edge to Vancouver as a top-pair defenceman is hard to aquire for cheap.

Burrows and Beaulieu: A 3rd line player for a furture top-4 defenceman that is ready or near ready. Bealieu has more value.

That trade would be a horribly unbalanced trade. Unless there's a prospect or a 1st coming back, there' no way in hell MB would do it.

Loungo's contract is shit. Only reason they can't trade him.

[Commandant]

Loungo's contract is shit. Only reason they can't trade him.

His contract is part of his trade value.

[Guest Stogey24]

His contract is part of his trade value.

How so...

[dlbalr]

How so...

The fact that it drags his value down. Luongo on a reasonable deal has a lot of value. Luongo on a back-diving deal (the one he has) has very, very little value.

[TurdBurglar]

How so...

Just to use an example;

Subban @ 8 years of $3.5m, increases his value becuase thats more cap space that can be used elsewhere. Plus for those 8 years he would be at top form.

Subban @ 8 years pf $11m, decrease his trade value because thats 1 player for the price of 2 (7m for what Subban should be worth + 4m that could be used for another player).

Loungo's problem is worse as he still has 9 years left @ 5.3m. He is 34. Count on him being a good goalie for another 2 years maybe, which 5.3m for a good goalie is great. Then you have 3 years of a decling goalie @ 5.3m. Then you have about 4 years of a backup/AHL/retired goalie @ 5.3m. Would you like to pay Budaj 5.3m for a few years? Thats whats wrong with his contract. If it were for 3 more years, he'd of already been traded, it's the cap hit on the last half of his contract that teams aren't willing to pay.

[Guest Stogey24]

Just to use an example;

Subban @ 8 years of $3.5m, increases his value becuase thats more cap space that can be used elsewhere. Plus for those 8 years he would be at top form.

Subban @ 8 years pf $11m, decrease his trade value because thats 1 player for the price of 2 (7m for what Subban should be worth + 4m that could be used for another player).

Loungo's problem is worse as he still has 9 years left @ 5.3m. He is 34. Count on him being a good goalie for another 2 years maybe, which 5.3m for a good goalie is great. Then you have 3 years of a decling goalie @ 5.3m. Then you have about 4 years of a backup/AHL/retired goalie @ 5.3m. Would you like to pay Budaj 5.3m for a few years? Thats whats wrong with his contract. If it were for 3 more years, he'd of already been traded, it's the cap hit on the last half of his contract that teams aren't willing to pay.

Lol, thanks bud, I know. I read commadants post as if he was saying Loungo's contract was somehow helping his value. Not too sure why.

[nihilz]

Luongo Burrows Edler Bieksa Hansen Horvat

Price Moen Markov Gorges Desharnais Collberg

That's what it would take for me to trade Price for Luongo..

Although.. Sedin's & Collberg could be preeeettty sexy..

[Link67]

I might be looking to trade Markov before Diaz, but I just don't even see the need for any trades by Habs at present and doubt any will be made anytime soon

I agree completely, every so often i see these comments from Fans about Diaz, either people have seriously short term memories, or they aren't watching the same games as us. What I recall was a Raphael Diaz that almost made hab fans forget about Subban for the first part of the season, and who was visibly slowed by his concussion only. Diaz is the next best thing to Markov we have. Soon Markov's void will be best filled by Diaz, and it would be crazy to trade the guy now, when he already looks this promising with not even 2 full seasons under his belt.

I think it just comes back to the notion that we need mean, hulking monsters in every roster spot according to some fans, and the bottom line is we already have the Stay at home, Physical, Hard Hat type guys in Emelin, Georges, and Tinordi. We still need the guys like Diaz to create those offensive chances with crisp passing and slick hockey sense, while playing a smart game in his own zone, much like Markov has done his whole career. But these same fans rather trade a kid like Diaz because he is too weak for there liking, regardless how devastating he was on our top PP unit last season while he was there.

[hab29RETIRED]

We'd be getting raped with this deal.

Luongo Burrows Edler Bieksa Hansen Horvat

Price Moen Markov Gorges Desharnais Collberg

That's what it would take for me to trade Price for Luongo..

Although.. Sedin's & Collberg could be preeeettty sexy..

[Guest Stogey24]

Luongo Burrows Edler Bieksa Hansen Horvat

Price Moen Markov Gorges Desharnais Collberg

That's what it would take for me to trade Price for Luongo..

Although.. Sedin's & Collberg could be preeeettty sexy..

It's too bad Montreal couldn't get their hands on Horvat in the draft. Not that we're in a need for centres by any means, but Plek, Eller, Gally, and Horvat would be pretty solid.

[nihilz]

We'd be getting raped with this deal.

hmmm.. I donno.

I think Vancouver would be foolish to make that move. In my fantasy, Fucale would eventually make Lu expendable and make a buyout easier to swallow.. or by then the cap has grown exponentially and his cap hit is nothing as he rides out his contract as a fantastic back-up. lmao

Pacioretty Plekanec Gionta

Galchenyuk Briere Gallagher

Bourque Eller Hansen

Prust White Burrows

Parros

Edler Subban

Tinordi Bieksa

Murray Diaz

Drewiske Bouillon

Emelin

Luongo

Budaj

[nihilz]

It's too bad Montreal couldn't get their hands on Horvat in the draft. Not that we're in a need for centres by any means, but Plek, Eller, Gally, and Horvat would be pretty solid.

Yea, but I don't think Plek will finish this contact as a Hab.