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Is this the start of a full-scale rebuild?


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Lets face facts, Bergevin has gone the "quick reset" in the past. 

 

What if the injuries to Weber and Price, and the contract situations for Danault, Armia, Tatar, etc.... is forcing him to re think things

 

We have a ton of prospects and young players. 

 

The 2022 and 2023 drafts are absolutely stacked. 

 

What if this is Bergevin saying, 2021 playoffs with the North Division was the last dance for this team.  And I'm blowing it up and full rebuild now. 

 

Are Gallagher and/or Petry the next ones out the door via trade?

 

Chiarot is in the final year of his deal and after a good playoffs this year, probably attracts a lot of interest at the 2022 Trade Deadline as a rental.

 

We are gonna have a shit ton of cap space.... what if we are gonna use it post expansion for other team's cap dumps when they give us picks and prospects to do it?

 

Is this we are all in on building around Suzuki, KK, Caufield, Romanov, etc... and lets see if we can get one of the top picks in 2022 (Wright, Lambert, Savoie) or 2023 (Bedard and Michikov) and go from there. 

 

Are we getting prepped for 2-3 years of pain after the big run?

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26 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Very interesting post.

 

Perhaps it will depend on whether Price is picked or not? 

What I was about to answer. It depends on who we lose to the expansion draft and in the UFA market

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A chance to shed both Price and effectively Weber at the same time.

 

Two generational drafts on the horizon.

 

A top 5 prospect pool and many picks already in hand.

 

The 2022 draft in montreal.

 

Already have Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, and KK.

 

Bergevin gaining equity and saving his job with a long playoff run.

 

Your new coach is best known for his work in juniors.

 

If you wanted a 2-3 year rebuild instead of 5.  It is highly unlikely to get all these circumstances at once.

 

 

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I don’t think it was Bergevin’s plan to rebuild but he is being forced into it - sort of anyway. 
 

MB was not expecting Danault to walk

MB was not expecting Weber done 

MB was not expecting Price to be exposed. 
MB was not expecting to like Allen so much. 
MB was not expecting Suzuki to be this good already. 
MB was not expecting the majority of our core to be gone just like that. 
 

I am fully on board with using our cap space to hoard bad contracts traded to us along with good prospects. 
 

 

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A proper rubuild would have, in my opinion,  older dmen and younger forwards, not the opposite.  Drafting Sergachev was the beginning of what could have been a proper rebuild. Trading Sergachev put an end to it.

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I don't think this was the plan 6 months ago. 

 

Has this become the plan in the last two weeks?

 

You are never gonna get a better set of circumstances to fall in your lap to shorten your rebuild

 

1) The reset has already given you a prospect pool and a set of 4 NHL-ready cornerstones.  Look at a team like San Jose who needs to blow it up, you are miles ahead of them.

2) With 2022 and 2023, The next two drafts are going to be the best Back-to-Back Drafts since 1979-80.

3) Cap Space has always been valuable.  The Flat Cap makes it even more valuable. 

4) A chance to dump price's contract, and have shea weber on LTIR has appeared in the same summer?  That's completely unexpected. 

5) It coincides with a chance to let Danault, Tatar and Armia walk, and get out from the Drouin contract too?  That's just flat out good fortune if you want to rebuild. The painful "blow it up" portion of the rebuild is essentially almost done, and with little pain.   

 

You can already be in year 3 of the classic "5 year plan" this summer.  You are miles ahead of a typical rebuild and you probably won't get this kind of an opportunity again. 

And in the meantime, Boston and Tampa will age out/have cap issues that will take them down as you are ready to rise. 

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9 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

A proper rubuild would have, in my opinion,  older dmen and younger forwards, not the opposite.  Drafting Sergachev was the beginning of what could have been a proper rebuild. Trading Sergachev put an end to it.

 

On the Left side of the Defence, you have (in no particular order) Romanov, Harris, Guhle, Norlinder, Struble in the system.  That won't be a position you need to address. 

 

RD will be. 

But again, you are looking at a team that could be very much, rebuild already in progress next season, rather than being at ground zero. 

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Pondering Commandant's point, it is amazing how different it feels to be considering a "rebuild" after making the Finals, as opposed to starting yet another rebuild after years of futility and wheel-spinning. (This would make what, the 5th or 6th rebuild/retool since 1993?)

 

I know, I know, the goal is to win the Cup. But as disappointing as not winning was, a lot of my aggravation/frustration over the past two decades has been over the fact that the Habs were not even in the conversation, that we never managed to go to the Big Show and compete for a Cup, let alone win one.

 

We finally made the Finals and had a legitimate, bona-fide Stanely Cup run. I find that I personally can bear the thought of the team falling back into a transitional rebuild phase with a lot more equanimity in that context.

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Lets face facts, Bergevin has gone the "quick reset" in the past. 

 

What if the injuries to Weber and Price, and the contract situations for Danault, Armia, Tatar, etc.... is forcing him to re think things

 

We have a ton of prospects and young players. 

 

The 2022 and 2023 drafts are absolutely stacked. 

 

What if this is Bergevin saying, 2021 playoffs with the North Division was the last dance for this team.  And I'm blowing it up and full rebuild now. 

 

Are Gallagher and/or Petry the next ones out the door via trade?

 

Chiarot is in the final year of his deal and after a good playoffs this year, probably attracts a lot of interest at the 2022 Trade Deadline as a rental.

 

We are gonna have a shit ton of cap space.... what if we are gonna use it post expansion for other team's cap dumps when they give us picks and prospects to do it?

 

Is this we are all in on building around Suzuki, KK, Caufield, Romanov, etc... and lets see if we can get one of the top picks in 2022 (Wright, Lambert, Savoie) or 2023 (Bedard and Michikov) and go from there. 

 

Are we getting prepped for 2-3 years of pain after the big run?

I don’t think e need 2-3 years. It’s going to be a challenge to make the playoffs next year. 

 

If Seattle takes price, and the league rules that Weber can go on LTIR. You have three  choices.
 

1) Exploit your cap space and cap issues of other teams, and get the stud #1D Hamilton, RFA offer to Makar), and get another 1a goalie for next two years and go for the make the playoffs and see what happens, but have a roster not requiring superman efforts by your goalie. Could also see if Eichal would be had at a discount, given cap issues most teams have - depending on his health of course, don’t want damaged goods.

 

2) full blown rebuild, where you take expensive contracts expiring within two years, and move older players like Chiarot, Gallagher and Taffoli. Pick up cheaper veterans to guide the kids and go for playoffs in three years, and lottery puck for the next two. With the pieces we already have, don’t think we need three year Of tanking.

 

3) plug holes like loss of Price with a #1 teams need to get rid if, and Weber with a guy like yandle and Barrie and hope you get in the playoffs, and than anything can happen.


ive wanted a full rebuild in the past, but given we have Suzuki, Caufield, KK, I prefer option #1.

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30 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Pondering Commandant's point, it is amazing how different it feels to be considering a "rebuild" after making the Finals, as opposed to starting yet another rebuild after years of futility and wheel-spinning. (This would make what, the 5th or 6th rebuild/retool since 1993?)

 

I know, I know, the goal is to win the Cup. But as disappointing as not winning was, a lot of my aggravation/frustration over the past two decades has been over the fact that the Habs were not even in the conversation, that we never managed to go to the Big Show and compete for a Cup, let alone win one.

 

We finally made the Finals and had a legitimate, bona-fide Stanely Cup run. I find that I personally can bear the thought of the team falling back into a transitional rebuild phase with a lot more equanimity in that context.

I’d rather look at doing some kind of rebuild - replacing price and Weber (with a legit #1 goalie and a young #1 dman), where we are rebuilding the core on the fly, or let’s also move older guys like Gallagher, Taffoli, and Chiarot, while there values are high and try amd draft a generational talent, than GI the route of other teams that lost in the finals. Like Ottawa, SJ and Phil, and think we are close and add guys past their prime thinking they are the missing piece to get us over the top.

 

we pretty much would get a similar opportunity as Vegas and Seattle, that we can exploit cap space for a couple of years if we want to do a full rebuild, or use our cap, to steal assets from other teams in trouble, and still go for it next year.

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I am in agreement with Commandant 100%. 
 

MB is protected from scrutiny as well due to the mass exodus. The last big core change happened under Gainey and it wasn’t great so I do not want MB to try and cobble together replacements. 
 

Our new core will be in stride in 3 years and Gallagher will be instrumental in his captaincy during that time. Supported by good drafting and development of Fleury, Guhle, Brook. 
 

We could be competitive in 3 years

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

... If Seattle takes price, and the league rules that Weber can go on LTIR. You have three  choices.
 

1) Exploit your cap space and cap issues of other teams, and get the stud #1D Hamilton, RFA offer to Makar), and get another 1a goalie for next two years and go for the make the playoffs and see what happens, but have a roster not requiring superman efforts by your goalie. Could also see if Eichal would be had at a discount, given cap issues most teams have - depending on his health of course, don’t want damaged goods.

 

2) full blown rebuild, where you take expensive contracts expiring within two years, and move older players like Chiarot, Gallagher and Taffoli. Pick up cheaper veterans to guide the kids and go for playoffs in three years, and lottery puck for the next two. With the pieces we already have, don’t think we need three year Of tanking.

 

3) plug holes like loss of Price with a #1 teams need to get rid if, and Weber with a guy like yandle and Barrie and hope you get in the playoffs, and than anything can happen.


ive wanted a full rebuild in the past, but given we have Suzuki, Caufield, KK, I prefer option #1.

Commandant raises a very interesting question ... as others have said it depends on whether Seattle takes Price ... he needs to be gone for any kind of rebuild and I just don't see MB trading Carey.

 

IF Price is gone then my choice would be #2, followed by #1 ... but would expect MB take a shot at #1 (or at least be seen to do so, it requires two major acquisitions) and then move on to #3.

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3 hours ago, Commandant said:

Lets face facts, Bergevin has gone the "quick reset" in the past. 

 

What if the injuries to Weber and Price, and the contract situations for Danault, Armia, Tatar, etc.... is forcing him to re think things

 

We have a ton of prospects and young players. 

 

The 2022 and 2023 drafts are absolutely stacked. 

 

What if this is Bergevin saying, 2021 playoffs with the North Division was the last dance for this team.  And I'm blowing it up and full rebuild now. 

 

Are Gallagher and/or Petry the next ones out the door via trade?

 

Chiarot is in the final year of his deal and after a good playoffs this year, probably attracts a lot of interest at the 2022 Trade Deadline as a rental.

 

We are gonna have a shit ton of cap space.... what if we are gonna use it post expansion for other team's cap dumps when they give us picks and prospects to do it?

 

Is this we are all in on building around Suzuki, KK, Caufield, Romanov, etc... and lets see if we can get one of the top picks in 2022 (Wright, Lambert, Savoie) or 2023 (Bedard and Michikov) and go from there. 

 

Are we getting prepped for 2-3 years of pain after the big run?

 

This is exactly what I am thinking. Depending on what happens with Price and Weber it could be a time to really rebuild. I don't think it will be a lot of pain though as the young kids are maturing quickly. 

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Maybe Bergevin is leaving next year and blowing up the team 😹😂😂😂

 

Joking aside this is what we should of done 4 years ago Instead of the retool. 

 

But we finally have a good team that just needs a PP QB and more depth on D. A lot of our scoring came when the D was pushing the play up ice and playing physical. But once the injuries started coming to the D the scoring dried up.  If we can add some Playmakers on the back end we should be okay. Pull a Tampa and rest Weber and Price until the playoffs. 

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12 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Maybe Bergevin is leaving next year and blowing up the team 😹😂😂😂

 

Joking aside this is what we should of done 4 years ago Instead of the retool. 

 

But we finally have a good team that just needs a PP QB and more depth on D. A lot of our scoring came when the D was pushing the play up ice and playing physical. But once the injuries started coming to the D the scoring dried up.  If we can add some Playmakers on the back end we should be okay. Pull a Tampa and rest Weber and Price until the playoffs. 

 

The more I think about this “rebuild” idea, the less I like it - and the more I incline to your way of thinking.

 

By sheer mis/fortune, we may have a chance here to replace Weber on the back end. Bring in, say, Hamilton, and you get seven years younger at the key #1D-man position, and Hamilton represents a significant upgrade on what Weber was bringing anyway. So: get seven years younger and more talented at a key position. Maybe find a way to add another puck-moving D-man on top of Hamilton, and acquire a capable #3 checking C who can give KK time to evolve into a consistent two-way, minutes-eating C.

 

At that point, why do we need to rebuild? You’ve still got Price and Allen for 2-3 more years. You’ve got a nice deep crop of FWs, none of whom are over the hill or even over 30 and two of whom appear to be legit top-line young studs. You’ve upskilled your D, most of whom, other than Petry, are in their primes. You have at least mid-level talent in the pipeline. All with a team that just went to the Finals. 

 

If we rebuild, don’t we just burn up the prime years of Edmundson/Chiarot/Toffoli/Anderson/Gallagher as well as the still-impactful twilight years of Petry and Price? THIS seems like the moment to be thinking in terms of a “retool on the fly” - replacing Weber/Danault - rather than a proper rebuild. 

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35 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The more I think about this “rebuild” idea, the less I like it - and the more I incline to your way of thinking.

 

By sheer mis/fortune, we may have a chance here to replace Weber on the back end. Bring in, say, Hamilton, and you get seven years younger at the key #1D-man position, and Hamilton represents a significant upgrade on what Weber was bringing anyway. So: get seven years younger and more talented at a key position. Maybe find a way to add another puck-moving D-man on top of Hamilton, and acquire a capable #3 checking C who can give KK time to evolve into a consistent two-way, minutes-eating C.

 

At that point, why do we need to rebuild? You’ve still got Price and Allen for 2-3 more years. You’ve got a nice deep crop of FWs, none of whom are over the hill or even over 30 and two of whom appear to be legit top-line young studs. You’ve upskilled your D, most of whom, other than Petry, are in their primes. You have at least mid-level talent in the pipeline. All with a team that just went to the Finals. 

 

If we rebuild, don’t we just burn up the prime years of Edmundson/Chiarot/Toffoli/Anderson/Gallagher as well as the still-impactful twilight years of Petry and Price? THIS seems like the moment to be thinking in terms of a “retool on the fly” - replacing Weber/Danault - rather than a proper rebuild. 

Agree I said when we started our retool we should of traded Price and Weber because you would of got more value for them at that time.  But we didn't and we pretty much wasted Weber for 4 years and Price for 4 years.

 

My stand on this has always been if you have a Price and Weber on your team you build a team around them to compete for a cup. You don't waste them.

 

Now we finally built a team around them and it maybe too late in terms of Weber's usefulness do to injuries. 

 

I like this team and think we can make the playoffs next year if we address our teams needs and that's depth on D. I think we have too many two way players and need more creative Playmakers on this team.   we need more Playmakers on D to QB the PP and push the play up ice for the forwards. Theirs a lot of 3rd line and 4th line centers that can replace the D and faceoffs wins that we will lose from Danault leaving.

 

Now the question is Kotkaniemi or Poehling??   I'm okay with trading Kotkaniemi and keeping Poehling over him. If the return for Kotkaniemi fills a big hole on the team. 

 

 

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KK or Poehling is not even a question. KK is an inconsistent 20-year-old who has shown he can be a highly-effective two-way C for stretches. Poehling, meanwhile, is a big zero who may never even make the NHL. They’re not comparable in any way.

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8 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

KK or Poehling is not even a question. KK is an inconsistent 20-year-old who has shown he can be a highly-effective two-way C for stretches. Poehling, meanwhile, is a big zero who may never even make the NHL. They’re not comparable in any way.

I disagree about Poehling, I think he could be a 40-50pt 3rd line checking center in the NHL.  He was doing good in the farm system before his injury. Kotkaniemi would bring more in a trade right now, so I'm okay trading him and keeping Poehling. Especially if Kotkaniemi gets us a top playmaking center.

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10 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

I disagree about Poehling, I think he could be a 40-50pt 3rd line checking center in the NHL.  He was doing good in the farm system before his injury. Kotkaniemi would bring more in a trade right now, so I'm okay trading him and keeping Poehling. Especially if Kotkaniemi gets us a top playmaking center.

 

Well, tomorrow never knows. I’ll merely point out that we have a pretty good playmaking centre already; his name is Nick Suzuki. And I doubt that KK commands a king’s ransom in return anyway, after being sat in the Finals.

 

If Poehling has the future you describe, then great, keep him, and we can have Slick Nick-KK-Poehling down the middle for the next decade.

 

Assuming no rebuild, the team’s main immediate need is puck-moving D anyway. We do need to replace Danault but moving KK toi achieve that seems bizarre, since KK projects to be maybe a bigger, ranger version of Danault anyhow.

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10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Well, tomorrow never knows. I’ll merely point out that we have a pretty good playmaking centre already; his name is Nick Suzuki. And I doubt that KK commands a king’s ransom in return anyway, after being sat in the Finals.

 

If Poehling has the future you describe, then great, keep him, and we can have Slick Nick-KK-Poehling down the middle for the next decade.

 

Assuming no rebuild, the team’s main immediate need is puck-moving D anyway. We do need to replace Danault but moving KK toi achieve that seems bizarre, since KK projects to be maybe a bigger, ranger version of Danault anyhow.

isn't Evans Danault-lite ? a late pick home run like Gallagher?

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1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said:

I disagree about Poehling, I think he could be a 40-50pt 3rd line checking center in the NHL.  He was doing good in the farm system before his injury. Kotkaniemi would bring more in a trade right now, so I'm okay trading him and keeping Poehling. Especially if Kotkaniemi gets us a top playmaking center.

 

There's no such thing as a 50-point third line checking centre.  If they're a 50-point player, they're easily in the top six.  That type of production from Poehling would make him a 2C, not a 3C (and on some teams, a 1C).  I think his more realistic ceiling is a 25-point third liner based on what I've seen from him so far in his career.

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9 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

There's no such thing as a 50-point third line checking centre.  If they're a 50-point player, they're easily in the top six.  That type of production from Poehling would make him a 2C, not a 3C (and on some teams, a 1C).  I think his more realistic ceiling is a 25-point third liner based on what I've seen from him so far in his career.

 

Isn't that what Yanni Gourde is? Or Jordan Staal when he was with the Penguins? It's rare and takes quite a bit of team depth, but it can be done.

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