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What goes around comes around Carolina pay back Kotkaniemi offer sheet


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10 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

that first season, Kotkaniemi was the best centre available to play 3C in the NHL. McCarron, Audette, Weal were still around. deLaRose lost to waivers. Thompson could not have played 3C

 

Habs were stuck, and MB decided not to trade prospects to improve the team. Prospect that at the time included Suzuki, Poehling, Romanov, Norlinder

I-M-O  ...  keeping rookies out of need is almost as bad as drafting out of need (unless the draft prospects are essentially equal) ... as many have said, they did KK no favours in terms of his overall career by keeping him.

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Just now, GHT120 said:

I-M-O  ...  keeping rookies out of need is almost as bad as drafting out of need (unless the draft propsects are essentially equal)

yeah, but that year sucked for the Habs and KK won his spot on the roster. Like Gallagher had done before. I cannot fault the Habs for that

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1 minute ago, alfredoh2009 said:

yeah, but that year sucked for the Habs and KK won his spot on the roster. Like Gallagher had done before. I cannot fault the Habs for that

If you are trying to develop a team through the draft then you have to make decisions on how to optimize the development of those picks, not putting the immediate needs of the team ahead of development ... as for Gallagher, after being drafted, he player 2 seasons of junior and half a season in the AHL before suiting hip for the Habs ... a very different situation in terms of NHL readiness ... BG scored at a 28g/82gms pace his first season

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22 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

If you are trying to develop a team through the draft then you have to make decisions on how to optimize the development of those picks, not putting the immediate needs of the team ahead of development ... as for Gallagher, after being drafted, he player 2 seasons of junior and half a season in the AHL before suiting hip for the Habs ... a very different situation in terms of NHL readiness ... BG scored at a 28g/82gms pace his first season

 

Agree with your points. I have seen it many times before where an 18 year old comes to camp with no pressure and expectations, performs well and people think WOW he can help us.  Year 2 there is pressure, expectations and a 19 year old is not ready to handle it.  Habs should have known this.  Another point about Gallagher is that his maturity level far exceeded his age. 

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

that first season, Kotkaniemi was the best centre available to play 3C in the NHL. McCarron, Audette, Weal were still around. deLaRose lost to waivers. Thompson could not have played 3C

 

Habs were stuck, and MB decided not to trade prospects to improve the team. Prospect that at the time included Suzuki, Poehling, Romanov, Norlinder

You don’t force an 18 year old to fill a roster spot unless he is clearly a generational player that should be in the lineup. You don’t being in an 18 year old you trade for or sign a depth forward. It’s always been a penny pinching (not getting a cheap depth forward to fill a hole), or overpaying  (Alzner, Drouin, Anderson) guys as UFA’s.  What exactly has Anderson done to warrant his contract?   It was a projection out. Drouin? Overpaid acquisition cost and signing for a guy who clearly had attitude and sense of entitlement  issues.  Of course, if he had signed a grunt forward in a year we were going to suck anyways, he couldn’t have sold his narrative of the talent that was coming.

 

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

yeah, but that year sucked for the Habs and KK won his spot on the roster. Like Gallagher had done before. I cannot fault the Habs for that

Gallagher as not the youngest player in the league, had played extra years in junior and AHL.

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I have to say I'm disappointed that they let him walk. It appears as though Dvorak is better right now, but next year, we don't know. If KK ends up being a vertanen/eller/galchenyuk prospect, then no harm done. But if he turns into Getzlaf.... ouch. I just feel like it's 2 years too early to give up on him. 

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1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

I have to say I'm disappointed that they let him walk. It appears as though Dvorak is better right now, but next year, we don't know. If KK ends up being a vertanen/eller/galchenyuk prospect, then no harm done. But if he turns into Getzlaf.... ouch. I just feel like it's 2 years too early to give up on him. 

Exactly. How many times has MB says you have to draft high to get a centre.  Than either blows the pick or development of the players he dies draft. Our 3 highest picks in his tenure are all gone. I said it when they brought him up as a rookie, it was too early.  Just like it’s too early to give up on him now.

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3 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

I have to say I'm disappointed that they let him walk. It appears as though Dvorak is better right now, but next year, we don't know. If KK ends up being a vertanen/eller/galchenyuk prospect, then no harm done. But if he turns into Getzlaf.... ouch. I just feel like it's 2 years too early to give up on him. 

 

That is my fear. I don't wish bad things for KK but I hope he doesn't develop into a great player.  Getzlaf was such a stud in his prime, you don't find those players often.

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6 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

That is my fear. I don't wish bad things for KK but I hope he doesn't develop into a great player.  

Not sure why, but i hope Kotkaniemi does well,  but obviously hope Canes suck as a team.

 

And i hope are numerous offer sheets next and every summer, let the billionaires bicker among themselves, good for a chuckle in off-season.

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3 hours ago, DON said:

Not sure why, but i hope Kotkaniemi does well,  but obviously hope Canes suck as a team.

 

And i hope are numerous offer sheets next and every summer, let the billionaires bicker among themselves, good for a chuckle in off-season.

Hurricanes apparently starting him on the wing ... would be less traumatic if he develops into a good winger since the  purpose for drafting him 3rd overall was to fill a hole at centre

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I don’t want KK to do particularly well at all. That’s enough with Habs prospects becoming stars after being traded. Let him top out as a 45-point guy at most.

 

15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

What exactly has Anderson done to warrant his contract?   It was a projection out. Drouin? Overpaid acquisition cost and signing for a guy who clearly had attitude and sense of entitlement  issues. 

 

 

But Habs29, with all due respect, you are lobbying for us to do exactly this with KK - give a huge overpay to a player with possible ‘entitlement issues’ who has done next to nothing in three seasons.

 

In any case, I don’t see what Drouin (an obvious disaster) or Anderson (an impact FW who I I’m happy is a Hab) have to do with the Kotkaniemi issue. Even if they were mistakes, that does not prove that the decision on the offer sheet was a mistake. MB can be wrong in some cases and right in others, just like everyone else.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that MB made the right call; only time will tell. But I do think it was a *reasonable* call under the circumstances.

 

And like several posters in this thread, I 100% agree that he should not have been brought up so early. This is glaringly obvious. Hopefully we are not about to reproduce the same folly with Caufield, who seems like a special talent and may be a rare outlier where this is defensible. But let’s see how things go in December/January, when the grind has kicked in and rookie enthusiasm worn off.

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25 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don’t want KK to do particularly well at all.

 

My sentiments as well.  I have no particular malice towards KK...did not think much of him during his time here in the sense that his production was highly underwhelming and his Bambi act was annoying, but he seemed to be a decent person.  But in general, I hope that most players on the other teams in the East have bad seasons...Ovi is the one exception.

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4 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don’t want KK to do particularly well at all. That’s enough with Habs prospects becoming stars after being traded. Let him top out as a 45-point guy at most.

 

 

But Habs29, with all due respect, you are lobbying for us to do exactly this with KK - give a huge overpay to a player with possible ‘entitlement issues’ who has done next to nothing in three seasons.

 

In any case, I don’t see what Drouin (an obvious disaster) or Anderson (an impact FW who I I’m happy is a Hab) have to do with the Kotkaniemi issue. Even if they were mistakes, that does not prove that the decision on the offer sheet was a mistake. MB can be wrong in some cases and right in others, just like everyone else.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that MB made the right call; only time will tell. But I do think it was a *reasonable* call under the circumstances.

 

And like several posters in this thread, I 100% agree that he should not have been brought up so early. This is glaringly obvious. Hopefully we are not about to reproduce the same folly with Caufield, who seems like a special talent and may be a rare outlier where this is defensible. But let’s see how things go in December/January, when the grind has kicked in and rookie enthusiasm worn off.

I didn’t see any entitlement issues with KK. He was upset at being sat in the playoffs - which I think most players would have been, and I’d be more concerned if he wasn’t. He went to the AHL and worked hard. Drouin on the other hand complained and felt he didn’t belong in the minors.  And frankly, I thought he should have been I. The lineup, Stall played well for two games. Otherwise he was pretty useless. Perry was the driver of that line (another unfortunate loss - should have given him two years).

 

id be much more comfortable giving a 1 yr deal to see if KK does break out, than I was on locking up Drouin (attitude issues), or Anderson (injury history) long term given their track record.  I liked what I saw from Anderson, but it was a leap too offer him that term and dollars. KK has more upside than either.

there were no red flags with Kk, it was obvious he still hasn’t grown into his body yet. He has gotten stronger every year snd and at  21-22 is when you typically expect a player to take the big step forward. 
 

in 9 years of MB on the job, it looks like we will only have one elite player drafted in the first round that will benefit us (Hopefully Caufield), and possibly one dman that could be a top 4 (Romanov).  I don’t think there is another tram in the league with a worst performance in drafting and development.

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31 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Hopefully we are not about to reproduce the same folly with Caufield, who seems like a special talent and may be a rare outlier where this is defensible. But let’s see how things go in December/January, when the grind has kicked in and rookie enthusiasm worn off.

 

 

Big difference between Caulfield and KK, huge difference between an 18 year old and a 20 year old who spent 2 years in college.  I am sure Caulfield will have some ups and downs but I believe he is mature enough to handle it.  You can see the difference between Caulfield when he was interviewed after being drafted and being interviewed now. he has matured a lot the last couple years.  

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KK"s production  and play during his rookie season justified him making the team even so he was still physically skinny and immature... the problem lies in his regression year 2 and parts of year 3...

 

 

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2 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

KK"s production  and play during his rookie season justified him making the team even so he was still physically skinny and immature... the problem lies in his regression year 2 and parts of year 3...

In his press conference today, even Bergevin admitted that with KK's poor second half in year one and the mediocre play the last two regular seasons makes him wonder if he wouldn't have benefitted with staying in Finland rather than jumping straight to the NHL.

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12 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

he actually did, he said he is not perfect and that this is a lessons he has learned

After almost 20 friggin years on the job🙄

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10 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

he actually did, he said he is not perfect and that this is a lessons he has learned

But, isnt it kinda given or basic that shouldnt be looking at drafting a high school kid too fast track & fill 'current' NHL roster need?  

And Bergevin isnt operating a vacuum and has a herd of experienced NHL folks around him, that i assume he would consult?

Of course, 17-18 yr old high school kids are very very hard to project (would love to see draft age moved up 1 year in age) and will be mistakes, but agree they should be erring on more cautious side with most kids then has been. 

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1 hour ago, DON said:

But, isnt it kinda given or basic that shouldnt be looking at drafting a high school kid too fast track & fill 'current' NHL roster need?  

And Bergevin isnt operating a vacuum and has a herd of experienced NHL folks around him, that i assume he would consult?

Of course, 17-18 yr old high school kids are very very hard to project (would love to see draft age moved up 1 year in age) and will be mistakes, but agree they should be erring on more cautious side with most kids then has been. 

I don’t know about all that. Farrel is not being fast tracked and I don’t remember other high school picks 

but I remember he answered that he has learned from KK’s case

 

 

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On 9/4/2021 at 10:06 PM, dlbalr said:

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen a jersey with a GM's name on it over the years.  That'd be a bit of collectable I guess.

 

On a different note, any interest in rejoining the SK league this season?


PM me the details…if I can commit the time I will.  If I can’t, I won’t sign up to be a ghost team…that just hurts the pool.  Been, what, over a decade?  Glad to see it’s still rolling…

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2 hours ago, Zowpeb said:

PM me the details…if I can commit the time I will.  If I can’t, I won’t sign up to be a ghost team…that just hurts the pool.  Been, what, over a decade?  Glad to see it’s still rolling…

 

I'll shoot you a note when it's up and running.  I need to get through the NFL pool draft first before I think about renewing the SK league.  That's tonight so hopefully in the next few days I'll be able to set aside some time to get it going.

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