tomh009 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 15 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: I wish I could be as optimistic, I am trying... really Not optimistic. It's just reality: no one knows yet how good he will be. Not the people who believe he is bottom-six at best, not the people who think he can be better than that. Predicting is hard, especially about the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 5 hours ago, tomh009 said: Maybe some GM out there has his heart set on getting a Clydesdale D-man! I think a prospect instead of a 1st round pick could be just as good. So dont need to necessarily focus on just getting another 1st pick for him. Numerous contenders a lacking a 1st pick; like Panthers, Vegas, Carolina, Aves...would they have any prospects of good value, which they might deal for Chiarot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, DON said: I think a prospect instead of a 1st round pick could be just as good. So dont need to necessarily focus on just getting another 1st pick for him. It doesn't have to be a 1st for this year's draft . Hopefully we can stock pile picks for next year's draft and maybe pull off a trade for who ever owns the top pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 1 minute ago, Habsfan89 said: It doesn't have to be a 1st for this year's draft . Hopefully we can stock pile picks for next year's draft and maybe pull off a trade for who ever owns the top pick. Would a 23 1st pick be harder to squeeze out of a contender than a solid amateur prospect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 6 minutes ago, DON said: Would a 23 1st pick be harder to squeeze out of a contender than a solid amateur prospect? Not really playoff team's don't mind giving up a 1st from 20-32 if they get a guy they really think can push their playoff run. I mean did you think we would get a 1st for Toffoli? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said: It doesn't have to be a 1st for this year's draft . Hopefully we can stock pile picks for next year's draft and maybe pull off a trade for who ever owns the top pick. You can have 5 first rounders... no one is trading Bedard At #1 overall for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I wish I could be as optimistic, I am trying... really This is how a rebuild works. You trade veterans (certainty, you know what you have) for a bunch of young prospects/draft picks (uncertainty) while hopefully keeping some of the right veterans to provide leadership. AND you need your scouts to do a good job with the draft picks and to identify good young prospects from other teams. While doing this you will also likely increase your cap space so perhaps you can target the right free agent. I am no pro scout but when I see clips of Heinman, I see a guy with excellent acceleration and a great shot. Not sure who came up with the comparisons to Lehkonen but this guy shoots the puck way way better then Lehkonen. I like this trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 11 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I am no pro scout but when I see clips of Heinman, I see a guy with excellent acceleration and a great shot. Not sure who came up with the comparisons to Lehkonen but this guy shoots the puck way way better then Lehkonen. I like this trade. I think the Lehkonen reference stems from him being a two-way forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 48 minutes ago, tomh009 said: I think the Lehkonen reference stems from him being a two-way forward. And he has a wicked shot also, but like Eller, Arty is just as likely to hit the organist in side of head as score, from 5 feet in front of net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 1 minute ago, DON said: And he has a wicked shot also, but like Eller, Arty is just as likely to hit the organist in side of head as score, from 5 feet in front of net. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 15, 2022 Author Share Posted February 15, 2022 4 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I wish I could be as optimistic, I am trying... really Staring at that avatar all season long can really do a lot towards killing optimism... 2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said: I mean did you think we would get a 1st for Toffoli? I think pretty much everyone did. With the two years left on his contract at a below-market rate, that pretty much seemed like a guarantee for them to justify trading him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, dlbalr said: Staring at that avatar all season long can really do a lot towards killing optimism... I think pretty much everyone did. With the two years left on his contract at a below-market rate, that pretty much seemed like a guarantee for them to justify trading him. I am not surprised we got a 1st. I think a lot of people hoped would get a 1st AND their top prospect. I think that was a little too much to hope for. Getting a 1st and a good prospect is a pretty fair return, you would always like to get more but not always possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 I was more surprised that he was the 1st to go, or even that he was dealt, than the return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 3 hours ago, tomh009 said: I think the Lehkonen reference stems from him being a two-way forward. And a guy with the defensive game of Lehkonen, but able to score 45-55 points is a top 6 forward, and a very valuable one at that. The winger version of a Philip Danault... I'm not saying he definitely will become such a player, but the potential for that is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 20 minutes ago, DON said: I was more surprised that he was the 1st to go, or even that he was dealt, than the return. You don't always get to decide the order ... if nobody is making serious offers on the players you really want/have to trade (e.g., Chiarot) but a team offers what you have decided is the right return for a player you don't have to trade then that determines the order ... Calgary was hot for secondary scoring and didn't want to wait ... IMO it is smart way for them to approach things once they decided they need something ... never understood waiting once you identified a need ... unless it is purely cap related. IMO, hopefully H&G have in their minds set a minimum price for every player they are willing to trade ... makes it easier to handle incoming calls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 Yes ... there are really four rough categories ... Need to trade, somehow or someway Want to trade at some kind of reasonable return Willing to trade if the return is even better than the anticipated future value Not willing to trade because the player is critical for the future Most of the players will be somewhere in the two middle groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 26 minutes ago, GHT120 said: You don't always get to decide the order ... if nobody is making serious offers on the players you really want/have to trade (e.g., Chiarot) but a team offers what you have decided is the right return for a player you don't have to trade then that determines the order ... True. I also didn't think he would be the first to go but Calgary wanted him and got it done. As you say, if you get the right offer then do it. Somehow I think they will be waiting a while for the right offer on Petry. I am guessing Petry doesn't want to be part of a rebuild given he likely only has 2 or 3 good years left. This trade was certainly a clear signal that a rebuild is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 30 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: This trade was certainly a clear signal that a rebuild is happening. And that it's not a one- or two-year retool: otherwise Toffoli might have been a key part of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 On 2/14/2022 at 3:41 PM, Dalhabs said: I think just the fact you spelled his name correctly is a good omen. That is one upgrade from Taffoli Toffoli to be sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 Good for him, i guess. https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/prospects/2022/2/15/22934500/montreal-canadiens-prospect-emil-heineman-tyler-toffoli-habs-trade-shl-development-bjorn-hellkvist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyrealist Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 Plenty of good points made already but given the impact of this move I will add my thoughts: -as mentioned this is def a strong sign that a full rebuild is underway. -also as mentioned earlier, I was a little surprised Toffolli was first to go (although another good point made above was that he was probably most in demand and easiest to move) -at first glance thought the deal was more volume return than value, but have come around and think they fetched as good of a return as they likely would have in the summer (the prospect has me intrigued, think the middle 6 prediction is acceptable and realistic, given he will age well within the next run of good times). -Toffolli’s first goal with the flames was a beauty and having watched plenty of their games this year (Habs being unwatchable) I will be rooting for him and think that team has potential to run deep if goaltending holds up. The flames have been good this year and are generally a fun team to watch. -the effect this move has on Suzuki and Caufield causes me some concern. They were both very close to TT and he also contributed to 14’s successes greatly. How will the youngsters respond to the open acknowledgment that this team is gonna suck for a while, it seems the young players were as surprised as many fans that TT was moved so quickly and early. The culture soured under DD this season and even with new coach this could get ugly and demoralizing for the young players as more and more pieces are sold off, if you’ve ever worked for a company going through downsizing/shut down you know how quickly morale/productivity wanes. That isn’t a switch that can be flipped back on in a couple of years, I think 14 has the mental fortitude to overcome this but a losing mindset is like a virus, spreads and grows. -Chiarot should and had better get a first round pick or a good prospect who will play valuable minutes in 2-3 years. -Hoffman has to go -Where is Drouin? Forgot he even existed. -Now I wonder if any of the vets are worth keeping, last years playoff run showed some late season value for guys like: Chiarot, Anderson, Byron, Lehks, Gally, Armia maybe even Petry. Last years run must have made an impression on some GM’s, here’s to hoping. Also interesting: Jake Allen’s truck was stolen in Mtl, cops told him it would never be found. so when he was ordering another and was advised it would be a bit of a wait to get the exact version he’d had, he told them to hold off cause he thinks he is moving soon. This is via the dealership. The roster is going to look a whole lot different very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 16 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: This is how a rebuild works. You trade veterans (certainty, you know what you have) for a bunch of young prospects/draft picks (uncertainty) while hopefully keeping some of the right veterans to provide leadership. AND you need your scouts to do a good job with the draft picks and to identify good young prospects from other teams. While doing this you will also likely increase your cap space so perhaps you can target the right free agent. I am no pro scout but when I see clips of Heinman, I see a guy with excellent acceleration and a great shot. Not sure who came up with the comparisons to Lehkonen but this guy shoots the puck way way better then Lehkonen. I like this trade. Good post. The kid is not a blue-chip, sure-fire prospect, and there is disagreement or just plain uncertainty over what his NHL ceiling is. So, those who say we have to wait and see are correct. We won’t know whether the trade has worked out for 3-5 years. (I pay little attention to clips of Heinman or any player, though - that tells us very little). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Good post. The kid is not a blue-chip, sure-fire prospect, and there is disagreement or just plain uncertainty over what his NHL ceiling is. So, those who say we have to wait and see are correct. We won’t know whether the trade has worked out for 3-5 years. (I pay little attention to clips of Heinman or any player, though - that tells us very little). Leksand is playing tomorrow and Saturday against two bottomfeeders of the SHL. I hope he gets good icetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 19 hours ago, Commandant said: You can have 5 first rounders... no one is trading Bedard At #1 overall for it. But alas nobody know who holds that now, which is why it is worth getting as many cards from the deck as you can. Actually if our cards are played right, 1st next year's is ours anyway and we are trying to scam 2nd overall from someone. Could you imagine? Bedard Michkov Wright Suzuki. OK, dreaming but not totally impossible. Please suck just as hard next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 3 hours ago, hockeyrealist said: ... Where is Drouin? Forgot he even existed ... He skated with Edmundson this morning I believe the "Chaumont is an insider reference to a TVA Sports reporter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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