Signing Kaiden Guhle signs: 6 years, $5.55M AAV

[Sir_Boagalott]

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I have to agree with Commandant on this one. It's important for a GM to establish trust and credibility with players. Trading them after you conduct good faith negotiations on a long term contract is not the way to do that. Plus it would make it harder to sign UFA's which he might want to do in a year or two.

 

So if Hughes traded Guhle, and recently signed Slaf, + Flames/Flor 1st to the Oilers for Draisaitl, Kane, and Cici; [Note: not a legit trade proposal, just an example] all Habs players would lose trust in Hughes and he'd have no credibility and they would all want to leave a happening city, have a hard-ass coach, with a rigid system, play in a non-electrifying arena, in front of fans that don't really care, and not potentially win multiple Cups.  Surely, no UFA would ever want to sign there after he did something like that?

 

The argument for loss of trust might prima facie sound good but the issue with that logic is that would essentially apply to every team that has ever traded a player.  

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

23 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

So if Hughes traded Guhle, and recently signed Slaf, + Flames/Flor 1st to the Oilers for Draisaitl, Kane, and Cici; [Note: not a legit trade proposal, just an example] all Habs players would lose trust in Hughes and he'd have no credibility and they would all want to leave a happening city, have a hard-ass coach, with a rigid system, play in a non-electrifying arena, in front of fans that don't really care, and not potentially win multiple Cups.  Surely, no UFA would ever want to sign there after he did something like that?

 

The argument for loss of trust might prima facie sound good but the issue with that logic is that would essentially apply to every team that has ever traded a player.  

If Hughes got an offer out of the blue for Guhle that blew his socks off then as a GM he would have to consider it. Just saying that I very much doubt he would look to trade him after signing him to a long term contract as that tells me he considers Guhle a big part of the future. I think we need a trade soon so we can stop talking about stuff unlikely to happen. Lol

[Sir_Boagalott]

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

Just saying that I very much doubt he would look to trade him after signing him to a long term contract as that tells me he considers Guhle a big part of the future.

 

Well, it is unarguable that Guhle is young and an RFA, therefore he had to be resigned.  I don't necessarily read into the signing as he must be a big part of the future (with the Habs).  i.e. his big part could be being involved in a trade.  

[Commandant]

23 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

That is your opinion.  Just so you know, there happens to be a concept in Law that you are clearly unfamiliar with called setting a precedence.  

 

ex:  if Hughes trades Guhle all the players will certainly trust Hughes that if they think they are worth $X and they ask for $X + anything that he will trade their greedy entitled ass.  i.e.: the players will all damn well know FAFO!

 

That would help future negotiations because the players would understand that if they like: the city, the management, their teammates, the environment at the BellCenter, the fans; and want to win Cups, then they should go into contract negotiations with a reasonable expectation and have an ask that wont be hindrance to the teams chances of acomplishing that.  Moving Guhle would show the players that Hughes is dead serious about the type of culture he is trying to create.

 

 

What the is this?

 

I dont even understand what you are trying to say.

 

Setting a precedent on what? Agreeing to a fair contract?

 

[Commandant]

27 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

Well, it is unarguable that Guhle is young and an RFA, therefore he had to be resigned.  I don't necessarily read into the signing as he must be a big part of the future (with the Habs).  i.e. his big part could be being involved in a trade.  

 

They wouldnt have given him a long term deal to trade him.  They would have gone one or two years and let his new team negotiate a long term deal.

 

But the goal isnt to trade him.  You might not like him, but that doesnt matter.  What we see is a contract that tells us that management sees him as a core piece.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Guhle signed to a very reasonable deal, so the notion that by trading him we’d “set a precedent” against bloated contracts makes zero sense. 

 

The idea seems to be that we should punish the kid for having an ambitious negotiating position that he then quite reasonably moved away from as part of the negotiating process. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

This is a business. Trading away anyone who negotiates - as opposed to just taking whatever management doles out - is not good business practice. 

 

When it comes to negotiations, the reputation Montreal should be building is: fair but firm. The Guhle deal is consistent with this. So trading him is a “solution” to a non-problem.

 

Now if we’re talking an actual hockey trade, that’s another question.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

58 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Guhle signed to a very reasonable deal, so the notion that by trading him we’d “set a precedent” against bloated contracts makes zero sense. 

 

The idea seems to be that we should punish the kid for having an ambitious negotiating position that he then quite reasonably moved away from as part of the negotiating process. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

This is a business. Trading away anyone who negotiates - as opposed to just taking whatever management doles out - is not good business practice. 

 

When it comes to negotiations, the reputation Montreal should be building is: fair but firm. The Guhle deal is consistent with this. So trading him is a “solution” to a non-problem.

 

Now if we’re talking an actual hockey trade, that’s another question.

Exactly this. 
 

Hughes is simply proving that he is a strong negotiator. If there is a president being set it’s that Hughes won’t be pushed around and will treat you fairly. 
 

Mistakes happen but I don’t see a massive overpayment coming out of Hughes. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

54 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Exactly this. 
 

Hughes is simply proving that he is a strong negotiator. If there is a president being set it’s that Hughes won’t be pushed around and will treat you fairly. 
 

Mistakes happen but I don’t see a massive overpayment coming out of Hughes. 

 

Not at this stage. It will be interesting to see whether he can keep it up if and when the team pivots to "win now" mode. That's when a whole other set of calculations come into play - e.g., can you resist overpaying for UFA X if you believe he is the "missing piece" that will put you over the top, etc.? But certainly, Hughes has shown himself to be a smart cap manager for a rebuilding squad.

[BCHabnut]

15 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

Apples to Oranges with that.  i.e. MB was not trying to create the type of culture Hughes is going for.

 

Yes, what was signed is fairly reasonable.  However, you are missing the point that he asked for 8 mil x 8 years.

 

Does anyone really think that Guhle is currently more valuable to the Habs than Nick, Cole or Slaf?

 

Furthermore, Hughes has now signed 3 of their top prospects to long term contracts.  Cole didn't ask for the moon and was reasonable.  Slaf's attitude was he might regret his contract, but he doesn't think so, he's over joyed with it, and said now he has to prove to everybody that he is worth that $, and he's been practicing on ice 3-4 hrs every day all summer.  In contrast, Guhle said I played 50 games and got 18 points, played 70 games and got 22 points, so I deserve $8 mil x 8 yrs.  There is a colossal difference in attitude there.  If Hughes had been dumb enough to do that I would almost expect Guhle to show up to training camp 20 lbs over weight just like Jose Theodore did after singing his big contract.  

 

 

Was it reported that he was asking for 8 x 8? 

[GHT120]

1 minute ago, BCHabnut said:

Was it reported that he was asking for 8 x 8? 

I believe it was reported that for 8 years they would have wanted Jake Sanderson money (8yrs x $8M AAV)

[BCHabnut]

Just now, GHT120 said:

I believe it was reported that for 8 years they would have wanted Jake Sanderson money (8yrs x $8M AAV)

OK. I see now. Ya. That's an unreasonable number imo. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

56 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 But certainly, Hughes has shown himself to be a smart cap manager for a rebuilding squad.

 

Absolutely, Hughes has shown that he is not going to overpay when it comes to player salaries and is not going to overpay when it comes to making trades. Long term contracts can be a risk but a calculated risk that you have to take sometimes. He has a plan and he is sticking to it. Hughes strikes me as very analytical and the kind of GM who will not make emotional decisions. So far so good. I am sure that not every decision he makes will turn out but every decision will be well thought out. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

4 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

I believe it was reported that for 8 years they would have wanted Jake Sanderson money (8yrs x $8M AAV)

 

Who really knows what they were asking for. For me that's totally irrelevant. It's what he ended up signing for that's important. 

[Commandant]

46 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Who really knows what they were asking for. For me that's totally irrelevant. It's what he ended up signing for that's important. 

 

Exactly. 

 

People ask for more in negotiations than they end up getting.  So comparing Guhle's ask to final contracts is just comparing apples and oranges.

[GHT120]

3 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

OK. I see now. Ya. That's an unreasonable number imo. 

I agree ... but neither was Guhle going to give up another two UFA years by signing for 8 years at the number that both sides settled on.

[Sir_Boagalott]

3 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Who really knows what they were asking for. For me that's totally irrelevant. It's what he ended up signing for that's important. 

 

Are you suggesting his agent was lying?  That $8.05 mil x 8 yrs is what his agent said.

 

2 hours ago, Commandant said:

People ask for more in negotiations than they end up getting.  So comparing Guhle's ask to final contracts is just comparing apples and oranges.

 

Yes, but not like that.   So, according to you, apparently all players that really have no chance at ever winning an award should start out with an ask of the last player of the same position to win an award?  Besides, that wasn't really an ask, it was more of a demand.  After all, he didnt agree to an 8 yr term.  

 

It is totally relevant because when his contract was agreed on how many years was it for?  Hughes was unable to get Guhle to be reasonable for the term he striving for.  Suzuki, Cole, and Slaf all had no issues signing with the Habs for 8 years.  However, Guhle refused unless it would make him the highest paid guy on the team - which is crazy.  No clue why numerous people are pretending that isn't significant.  

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

Are you suggesting his agent was lying?  That $8.05 mil x 8 yrs is what his agent said.

 

Not suggesting his agent was lying, just saying that what he was asking for doesn't matter. It's what he signed for that's important.  Maybe his agent was greedy, doesn't matter, it's the end result. 

 

We need a trade or something as we have beat this to death. 

[Commandant]

The problem is we know Sanderson signed for 8x8. 

 

we have no idea what Sanderson's agent asked for either. But I think its fair to say he asked for more than what he settled for. 

 

And we are also one year later with a rising cap. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

It’s a good contract, and he’s not getting traded just to prove some Baroque point nobody understands, so we really should chill out.

[Commandant]

23 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

It’s a good contract, and he’s not getting traded just to prove some Baroque point nobody understands, so we really should chill out.

 

Lol, so true.

[Sir_Boagalott]

18 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

he’s not getting traded just to prove some Baroque point nobody understands

 

Seriously, you are unable to comprehend that Montreal is a happening city, the Habs have a great coach that isn't a hard-ass, with a laissez faire style with no rigid system, they have great teammates, play in 1 of the best environments at the BellCenter for 41 games/yr, great passionate fans; and this rebuild should lead to the Habs winning multiple Cups? 

 

Well, Guhle expecting $8.05 mil x 8 yrs would be an over pay, hence a hindrance that could undermine their chances at doing that.

 

Boston won Cups and made several Cup Final appearances due to numerous of their top players gave the Bruins a discount.  Furthermore, more recently as some might know Tampa Bay won numerous Cups and had other Cup Final appearances and yet again that was due to multiple of their top players giving them a discount.  

 

Somehow, this concept is unfathomable for people to grasp? Wow.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

Seriously, you are unable to comprehend that Montreal is a happening city, the Habs have a great coach that isn't a hard-ass, with a laissez faire style with no rigid system, they have great teammates, play in 1 of the best environments at the BellCenter for 41 games/yr, great passionate fans; and this rebuild should lead to the Habs winning multiple Cups? 

 

Well, Guhle expecting $8.05 mil x 8 yrs would be an over pay, hence a hindrance that could undermine their chances at doing that.

 

Boston won Cups and made several Cup Final appearances due to numerous of their top players gave the Bruins a discount.  Furthermore, more recently as some might know Tampa Bay won numerous Cups and had other Cup Final appearances and yet again that was due to multiple of their top players giving them a discount.  

 

Somehow, this concept is unfathomable for people to grasp? Wow.

 

No argument with your 1st paragraph. Not sure Guhle was expecting 8M just because his agent may have been asking for it.  We don't know what Slaf, Suzuki and Caulfield were asking for before settling at a final dollar value. Their agents decided to keep negotiations quiet which is not a bad thing. 

 

It's harder to give a big discount when you are playing in the highest tax region in the NHL.  That sucks but that's reality. Easier to give a discount when there is no or a lot less state tax. 

[tomh009]

6 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

It's harder to give a big discount when you are playing in the highest tax region in the NHL.  That sucks but that's reality. Easier to give a discount when there is no or a lot less state tax. 

Guhle will pay about 53% tax on his Quebec income (the 41 home games). In California he would pay about 49%, NJ 47%, so the differences are not always so dramatic--two percentage points of his total salary as compared to California, for example.

 

(Yes, for you and me 2% of $6M is still a lot but it's pocket change for many professional athletes.)

[Sir_Boagalott]

17 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

No argument with your 1st paragraph. Not sure Guhle was expecting 8M just because his agent may have been asking for it.  We don't know what Slaf, Suzuki and Caulfield were asking for before settling at a final dollar value. Their agents decided to keep negotiations quiet which is not a bad thing. 

 

It's harder to give a big discount when you are playing in the highest tax region in the NHL.  That sucks but that's reality. Easier to give a discount when there is no or a lot less state tax. 

 

Everything I said in that 1st paragraph, if you were a young player with the Habs right now would you give any of that an intrinsic monetary value?  Or, would you demand more $ than you are worth to remain in that highly advantageous situation?

 

Besides, contrary to what numerous have hilariously suggested, it is never solely the agent asking for it. That is so far out of touch with reality.   ex:  if you were Guhle and loved Montreal and wanted to stay long term, win Cups, ect, and were willing to take 6 mil x 8 yrs and your agent asked for $8 mil x 8 yrs because they would make more $ if you got more $.  If that was the situation then you'd have a shit agent and you should fire their greedy over reaching ass.  That's the truth.  If an agent does that they would not be representing your best interest, because your priority would be to be there long term and win Cups vs make the most $ possible.  

 

@tomh009 is 100% right about the Taxes.

 

 

 

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

24 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Guhle will pay about 53% tax on his Quebec income (the 41 home games). In California he would pay about 49%, NJ 47%, so the differences are not always so dramatic--two percentage points of his total salary as compared to California, for example.

 

(Yes, for you and me 2% of $6M is still a lot but it's pocket change for many professional athletes.)

 

You cherry picked the 2 states with the highest state tax rates for income. Then you have Florida, Texas, Nevada and I think Washington that have zero state tax on income. That is a noticeable difference.