Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: If we're Monty skeptics, then we should leap at the chance to convert him into a younger asset - especially if EDM is willing to part with something significant. Myself, being more of a Monty believer than skeptic, I would not trade him for a 2nd. Having a major hole at G for the foreseeable future is not a good recipe, even for a rebuilding team. (My premise is that it does not help player development to get shellacked and not get rewarded for strong efforts, which is what not having G inevitably results in). Plus Monty may still be a viable G when this team moves out of the basement, meaning we'd at least have a guaranteed option when the time comes. That's just me, though. Someone who is more optimistic about Primeau might also feel differently about moving Monty out. Good analysis. Dependable goalies are not easy to find and Monty is showing signs of maybe, possibly being a good one. A 2nd round pick is not enough. I am hardly a great judge of goalie talent though so I trust Hughes will make a good decision as I can't see them carrying 3 goalies all year long. Someone is going to get traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 5 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Friedman is saying that Edmonton is interested in Montembault and Primeau but not in Allen. Montembault is worth more than Allen I would think but what kind of return would Monty bring? A second? Not surprising about Montembeault but it's a bit surprising about Primeau. Both fit their financial structure a lot better than Allen; they could add one of them without necessarily subtracting from their roster. I guess they view Primeau as an upgrade over Pickard for the #2 role but that's not going to solve anything for them. I think a 2nd could be doable for Montembeault, especially if there were other teams in the mix. The Kings are sniffing around for a backup upgrade and he fits their payroll structure as well. But they need to figure out if they can extend him first before pursuing any sort of trade since it appears they've identified him as someone they want to keep around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Good analysis. Dependable goalies are not easy to find and Monty is showing signs of maybe, possibly being a good one. A 2nd round pick is not enough. I am hardly a great judge of goalie talent though so I trust Hughes will make a good decision as I can't see them carrying 3 goalies all year long. Someone is going to get traded. An unknown factor in any discussion of a possible Montembeault trade is what he is asking for in terms of an extension ... if he is being "trop gourmand", term or AAV, then there may be a greater willingness to move him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 23 minutes ago, GHT120 said: An unknown factor in any discussion of a possible Montembeault trade is what he is asking for in terms of an extension ... if he is being "trop gourmand", term or AAV, then there may be a greater willingness to move him. Yeah, excellent point. I like Monty but his demands have to be reasonable- otherwise we might as well focus on maximizing return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 18 minutes ago, GHT120 said: An unknown factor in any discussion of a possible Montembeault trade is what he is asking for in terms of an extension ... if he is being "trop gourmand", term or AAV, then there may be a greater willingness to move him. Marc D'Amico was reporting the expectation is $3.5m-$3.8m on a "short-term" deal. He used Vanecek out of New Jersey, Gustavsson out of Minnesota, Georgiev out of Colorado, and Jarry out of Pittsburgh as compatibles. From that list alone, I would expect the number to be in the $3m-3.5m range as all of the above goalies are getting more starts than Montembeault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 34 minutes ago, GHT120 said: An unknown factor in any discussion of a possible Montembeault trade is what he is asking for in terms of an extension ... if he is being "trop gourmand", term or AAV, then there may be a greater willingness to move him. Absolutely. With Monty being a UFA his salary demands will certainly play a role in any decision they make. I just don't see Primeau having a lot of market value so I think Monty/Allen are the more likely trade candidates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, TurdBurglar said: Marc D'Amico was reporting the expectation is $3.5m-$3.8m on a "short-term" deal. He used Vanecek out of New Jersey, Gustavsson out of Minnesota, Georgiev out of Colorado, and Jarry out of Pittsburgh as compatibles. From that list alone, I would expect the number to be in the $3m-3.5m range as all of the above goalies are getting more starts than Montembeault. Some of those are viable comparables, some aren't even close. I didn't go deep into the comparables but my 'fair' price range is a bit lower than that. https://www.habsworld.net/2023/11/mulling-over-a-montembeault-extension/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Whether Monty or Allen gets dealt, both are 'OK' but i am guessing neither is the long term answer and I wont be disappointed whoever goes. https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/montreal-canadiens/analysis/how-long-will-the-montreal-canadiens-keep-three-goalies 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 36 minutes ago, DON said: Whether Monty or Allen gets dealt, both are 'OK' but i am guessing neither is the long term answer and I wont be disappointed whoever goes. https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/montreal-canadiens/analysis/how-long-will-the-montreal-canadiens-keep-three-goalies I don't think Allen is the long term answer but Monty could be. He just turned 27 and has showed signs of being a dependable goalie. If Monty isn't then I don't know who is. Primeau hasn't shown any sort of consistency yet and any other prospects are a few years away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 39 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I don't think Allen is the long term answer but Monty could be. He just turned 27 and has showed signs of being a dependable goalie. If Monty isn't then I don't know who is. Primeau hasn't shown any sort of consistency yet and any other prospects are a few years away. I share this view - although myself, I would see Monty as a “bridge” or transitional goalie, carrying us through to whomever will be the goalie during this team’s Cup window (assuming we have one). Maybe he can be the main man for 2-3 years, then recede or be traded as the Successor Goalie emerges. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 45 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I don't think Allen is the long term answer but Monty could be. He just turned 27 and has showed signs of being a dependable goalie. If Monty isn't then I don't know who is. Primeau hasn't shown any sort of consistency yet and any other prospects are a few years away. Unlike the Hasek/Thomas' of the world, not certain how many legit #1 NHL goalies haven't already established themselves by age 27. I suspect Montembeault ends up as a quality #2, maybe a 1A/1B ... I don't want another $10M goalie, but to win a Cup with even a 1A/1B you need a VERY strong team ... even McDavid/Draisaitl haven't managed to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Montembault is like buying top sirloin steaks - serviceable quality that is fairly cheap. Edmonton wants tenderloin or even strip loin steak but wow the price is really high. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Just now, Prime Minister Koivu said: Montembault is like buying top sirloin steaks - serviceable quality that is fairly cheap. Edmonton wants tenderloin or even strip loin steak but wow the price is really high. They can barely afford top sirloin without selling off pieces of their "household". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Unlike the Hasek/Thomas' of the world, not certain how many legit #1 NHL goalies haven't already established themselves by age 27. I suspect Montembeault ends up as a quality #2, maybe a 1A/1B ... I don't want another $10M goalie, but to win a Cup with even a 1A/1B you need a VERY strong team ... even McDavid/Draisaitl haven't managed to do it. Sometimes with goalies it's just a matter of being in the right situation where they can build some confidence. The most extreme example of that is Johnny Bower, kicked around the minors a lot, a few stints with a bad Rangers team and then joined the Leafs when he was 33 and the rest is history. What about Linus Ulmark, all of a sudden at age 30 he is probably considered one of the best in the NHL. Perhaps going to an organization like Boston helped his confidence. I think with goalies being in the right situation is really important. Hard for a goalie to build confidence on a bad team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 21 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Montembault is like buying top sirloin steaks - serviceable quality that is fairly cheap. Edmonton wants tenderloin or even strip loin steak but wow the price is really high. Teams don't give up top notch goalies easily as they are hard to find and develop. Edmonton is in a tough spot right now. Their goaltending just isn't good enough and they are in win now mode as much as any team in the NHL, Holland has to do something, just don't think Montreal's goalies are a huge upgrade, an improvement perhaps but not a huge upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Nothing against him but if I could leverage a waiver wire pick up who's a pending UFA for anything more than a 2nd round pick I'd do it in a New York minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 35 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Sometimes with goalies it's just a matter of being in the right situation where they can build some confidence. The most extreme example of that is Johnny Bower, kicked around the minors a lot, a few stints with a bad Rangers team and then joined the Leafs when he was 33 and the rest is history. What about Linus Ulmark, all of a sudden at age 30 he is probably considered one of the best in the NHL. Perhaps going to an organization like Boston helped his confidence. I think with goalies being in the right situation is really important. Hard for a goalie to build confidence on a bad team. Don't disagree ... but Bower was back in the 6-team league when lots of very good players got buried ... Ulmark is IMO more likely an outlier than a "model" for the habs planning their future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Ullmark was always a good goalie, but that Buffalo team was awful in front of him. The Boston defence in front of him is great, and Swayman is putting up numbers that are just as good. He is neither as bad as he looked in Buffalo, nor as good as he looks in Boston, so yes, situation matters. Don't get me wrong, he's probably a top 10 starter in the NHL, but he's not up where his stats suggest which is winning the Vezina. So you are right that situation matters. As for Montembault, I again stick to my limit.... $3.5 million x 3 years. If he wants to sign that, great. If he wants more, he can go in a trade. I think he can be part of a platoon, but I think lots of guys can and you can't overpay for that. This isn't a playoff team anyway and we can survive til summer on Allen/Primeau if we have to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Sometimes with goalies it's just a matter of being in the right situation where they can build some confidence. The most extreme example of that is Johnny Bower, kicked around the minors a lot, a few stints with a bad Rangers team and then joined the Leafs when he was 33 and the rest is history. What about Linus Ulmark, all of a sudden at age 30 he is probably considered one of the best in the NHL. Perhaps going to an organization like Boston helped his confidence. I think with goalies being in the right situation is really important. Hard for a goalie to build confidence on a bad team. Another recent case is Jakob Markstrom, who like Monty has a big frame and took time to master it. Markstrom became an elite or near-elite G around age 28 and sustained that for a few years (he is now 33 and regressing). Monty is not in the same class, but the point is that there is precedent for late-blooming G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Montembault is like buying top sirloin steaks - serviceable quality that is fairly cheap. Edmonton wants tenderloin or even strip loin steak but wow the price is really high. geeze! I am hungry now 🥩 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Helmethead said: Nothing against him but if I could leverage a waiver wire pick up who's a pending UFA for anything more than a 2nd round pick I'd do it in a New York minute. same here. that would be a huge return on a stopgap waiver pickup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 26 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: same here. that would be a huge return on a stopgap waiver pickup. It would be a good return but Monty's value has increased from a stopgap waiver pickup so that is the wrong way to look at the return you would get. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: It would be a good return but Monty's value has increased from a stopgap waiver pickup so that is the wrong way to look at the return you would get. what's the worst that can happen from trading Montembeault? that they miss the playoffs? Allen can find consistency with more regular play and Primeau can share the workload and learn to be a backup in the NHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: It would be a good return but Monty's value has increased from a stopgap waiver pickup so that is the wrong way to look at the return you would get. Exactly. You can't judge a player by what they were three years ago. You have to judge Montembault what he is worth today. No one would want us to flip Joshua Roy for a fifth rounder, even if that's the round we drafted him in, so why are we judging Montembault by how we acquired him. Values go up and down all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 6 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: what's the worst that can happen from trading Montembeault? that they miss the playoffs? Allen can find consistency with more regular play and Primeau can share the workload and learn to be a backup in the NHL Allen is old and clearly not the long term solution. Primeau learning and proving he's an NHLer is a hope, not a guarantee. You want the worst case scenario.... here it is. The worst that can happen is that you traded away 1/2 of what would be a future tandem for you, and you need to go out and find two goalies instead of 1 before your are ready to make the playoffs. The worst case scenario is that Monty proves he's a 1a/1b, Allen continues to show his age and fall off, Primeau never becomes a legit NHL goalie (or 1 of them gets a serious injury and you have to look for a goalie to finish the year), the prospects in the system are not ready for the NHL. You have to look for 2 goalies next summer. Meanwhile, with two bad goalies behind a young team, you hurt the confidence and development of a core that is full of young defencemen who are in their 1st or 2nd season on the blueline, and a bunch of forwards who are still young like Slaf, Caufield, Newhook, Suzuki, Ylonen, RHP, etc.... stalling all of their development because the team loses confidence and plays tight knowing that any mistake is a goal against. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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