The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 (edited) But for every skilled-but-unphysical-and-mentally-questionable player people turn out to be wrong about, like Datsyuk (or Ribeiro, or Briere), there are many dozens more that they're right about. We've had our share of these types of guys in Montreal over the years, e.g., Stephane Lebeau, Pierre Larouche, Kjell Dahlin, Andrei Kovalenko, Oleg Petrov, Sergei Berezin, etc.. The singular example of Datsyuk shouldn't alarm us too much. Having said that, I share some of your concern. Grabs has absolutely lethal speed, put up shockingly good AHL numbers at least during streaks, and, indeed, did not get a viable chance with us. While I have a hard time picturing him turning into a Datsyuk, I can see him potting around 20 goals, 50-60 points and enjoying a good career as an exciting if perhaps limited second-line C. It's quite possible that when Koivu leaves we'll look back on this and wonder what we were thinking. But Gainey makes many of his moves based on his assessment of player character. The suspicion is that he's concluded that Grabovski is a non-winner, a headcase, an assessment that may be based on more than just that one incident (presumably he did his homework, consulting the AHL scout/coach/manager feedback on the young man, etc.). If so, then we might see Grabovski do well for a couple for years and gradually wear out his welcome. Probably he will be a transitional player for them, in the way that Petrov or Sergei Zholtok were for us. In any case, I'm sure he'll add a bit of pizzazz to the Leafs and I wouldn't be stunned if he scores at least one spectacular goal against us. Edited September 23, 2008 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 But for every skilled-but-unphysical-and-mentally-questionable player people turn out to be wrong about, like Datsyuk (or Ribeiro, or Briere), there are many dozens more that they're right about. We've had our share of these types of guys in Montreal over the years, e.g., Stephane Lebeau, Pierre Larouche, Kjell Dahlin, Andrei Kovalenko, Oleg Petrov, Sergei Berezin, etc.. The singular example of Datsyuk shouldn't alarm us too much. Having said that, I share some of your concern. Grabs has absolutely lethal speed, put up shockingly good AHL numbers at least during streaks, and, indeed, did not get a viable chance with us. While I have a hard time picturing him turning into a Datsyuk, I can see him potting around 20 goals, 50-60 points and enjoying a good career as an exciting if perhaps limited second-line C. It's quite possible that when Koivu leaves we'll look back on this and wonder what we were thinking. To be fair, Daniel Briere and Mike Ribeiro were superstar junior players with a lot of hype and expectations around them. However even though they panned out quite well in recent years, I still woudn't want to build a strong core with them in it (although I thought the same of Datsyuk, but he's changed my mind over the last 2 years, I was especially impressed with his playoff performance). Similarly, if Grabovski becomes a similar unidimentional, although sometimes exciting, 60-70 point player (with perhaps the occasional really big season season), I couldn't care any less. I'm sure many Habs fans will complain and ask for Gainey's head, but I don't see these guys as quality players, and I think we're past building around such guys (i.e Zednik, Bulis, Savage, Ryder, Petrov, Perreault, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 (edited) To be fair, Daniel Briere and Mike Ribeiro were superstar junior players with a lot of hype and expectations around them. However even though they panned out quite well in recent years, I still woudn't want to build a strong core with them in it (although I thought the same of Datsyuk, but he's changed my mind over the last 2 years, I was especially impressed with his playoff performance). Similarly, if Grabovski becomes a similar unidimentional, although sometimes exciting, 60-70 point player (with perhaps the occasional really big season season), I couldn't care any less. I'm sure many Habs fans will complain and ask for Gainey's head, but I don't see these guys as quality players, and I think we're past building around such guys (i.e Zednik, Bulis, Savage, Ryder, Petrov, Perreault, etc). Well, I suppose I agree, except that you have to have the right framework for comparison. It's one thing to say you'd rather build around a "quality player" like (say) Joe Sakic than a "non quality" player like (say) Mike Ribeiro. Who wouldn't?? But if your actual choices for second line C are (say) Mike Ribeiro or Steve Bégin, then I'm pretty sure that Ribeiro starts to look pretty good, no? Similarly, given the lack of decent C prospects in our organization, you can legitimately speculate that in two or three years we'll be better off with a Grabovski who gets "merely" 70 points and "the occasional really big season" than with, say, less-than-offensively-gifted players like Chipchura or Lapierre. Shrugging our shoulders and saying that "Grabovski is no Crosby anyway" will be pretty cold comfort under those circumstances. Anyway, what I've outlined is the second-worst-case scenario (the worst being the Datsyuk scenario) and, as I say, it probably won't happen. I just don't find the "he's no Sakic" argument very edifying. Edited September 23, 2008 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 If you're point is that we took a hit losing him because we'll need him to replace Koivu, I think we have enough time to draft or acquire a better replacement than Grabovski, if Ben Maxwell isn't already one. Grabs does have the potential to be a 2nd line player but we don't have the time to develop him into one. With the Leafs, he'll be given top line minutes except even if he does break out, he'll have limited potential to do much over there given the rest of the team. At any rate, if they're resting all their hopes no Grabovski becoming the next Pavel Datsyuk, I recommend they keep out of the casinos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Well, I suppose I agree, except that you have to have the right framework for comparison. It's one thing to say you'd rather build around a "quality player" like (say) Joe Sakic than a "non quality" player like (say) Mike Ribeiro. Who wouldn't?? But if your actual choices for second line C are (say) Mike Ribeiro or Steve Bégin, then I'm pretty sure that Ribeiro starts to look pretty good, no? Similarly, given the lack of decent C prospects in our organization, you can legitimately speculate that in two or three years we'll be better off with a Grabovski who gets "merely" 70 points and "the occasional really big season" than with, say, less-than-offensively-gifted players like Chipchura or Lapierre. Shrugging our shoulders and saying that "Grabovski is no Crosby anyway" will be pretty cold comfort under those circumstances. Anyway, what I've outlined is the second-worst-case scenario (the worst being the Datsyuk scenario) and, as I say, it probably won't happen. I just don't find the "he's no Sakic" argument very edifying. Actually I didn't mean building around as in a franchise player and the focus of the team, but rather to build a team with quality players who display a good all-around game, character, heart, hockey sense, a willingness to constantly improve and to do what's best for the organization, and characteristics like that. You can have a quality offensive first line centre, but there are also less talented 3rd and 4th liners that I could consider quality players as well. For example, I would consider guys like Kris Draper and Mike Peca (when used as a 3rd liner, where he belongs) as quality players, although you should never expect them to lead your team in scoring. Mike Peca was a huge reason for the Oilers making it to the Cup finals 2 years ago, he was especially great against the Sharks, winning all important faceoffs and neutralizing Joe Thornton along with Pronger. This is also why I think we need to give Chipchura every chance to suceeed, because he can become that type of player. I don't think Steve Bégin is that type of player, he's a little bit too limited and has less-than-average hockey sense, however if I'm building a contender, I would rather have Begin as a forth line winger than Ribeiro as a first or even second line centre. This is also why I'ven mentionned in the past that we needed to stop wasting time on guys like Ryder and Ribeiro ... (although they were useful during the rebuilding process) and start investing more time and energy in others like Plekanec (who isn't as skilled offensively, but still displayed the potential for a better overall game) and especially Andrei Kostsitsyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Well, like I said...IF Grabs turns into what we can not-unreasonably expect him to become, a limited but useful 2nd-line C (60 points per year, say)...and IF the Habs fail to replace Koivu with a comparable player in the next 2-3 seasons...THEN we will look back on the Grabs deal as awful. That we'd all rather have a "quality" player doesn't change that. Anyway, that's a lot of "ifs" and I'm not losing sleep over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Some great Leaf hate today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 LEAFS SUCK< LEAFS SUCK< LEAFS SUCK Just had to get that out. That feels better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 A guy rub a bottle and a genius comes out. He will grant 1 wish. The guy had recently lost his mother and asks the genius to bring her back alive. The genius tells the guy that he cannot grant this kind of wishes. Then, the guy ask the genius to make the Leafs win the Stanley Cup. So, the genius answers : Well, let me see if I can do something for your mother... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Hehe, I didn't know geniuses could grant wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 So all I have to do is study harder and I can grant wishes? Sweet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 how the ###### do you say génie in english ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 how the ###### do you say génie in english ??? Genie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Genie. In a Bottle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Genie. well, ######ing Harrap's English-French Français-Anglais MINI dictionary / dictionnaire .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMPL Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Haha nice joke Joe! Man I wish I could speak both languages.. but it is useless in Sask and im too damn lazy. Honestly though, from watching so much RDS my french has gotten better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Haha nice joke Joe! Man I wish I could speak both languages.. but it is useless in Sask and im too damn lazy. Honestly though, from watching so much RDS my french has gotten better! just don't try to learn from Brunet. his french is worse than yours I'm pretty sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromage Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Umm... Somehow the Laffs managed to trade Colaicovo and Steen for Stempniak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Umm... Somehow the Laffs managed to trade Colaicovo and Steen for Stempniak. Not a bad move in a Leafs perspective: CC is always injured and Steen has never lived up the expectations. I guess the blues needed NHL players to fill out uniforms. more moves to come in TO ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Thats a really good trade for TO. Two guys who never even came close to living up to expectations (anyone else remember when Colaiacovo was some kind of god?) for a guy who should be a 30 goal scorer some day. I'm not surprised the Blues traded him though, they were really disappointed he never built on his 06-07 season last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 I've always felt that Stempniak was an ordinary winger playing quality minutes on a weak Blues team, but he's shown that he can complete other good players; since the Leafs are giving up nothing of significant value (maybe they'll do well in St-Louis, but for now they are only depth/reserve players), it's a pretty good trade. If he develiops some interesting chemistry with Jason Blake, the Leafs could find themselves with three pretty good lines... with their decent defensive squad and Toskala, they could really compete for a playoff spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 I wouldnt trade Steen + Coliacovoitis for Wellwood and the Laffs gave him away. Its hard to say who won this trade now and we will have to wait and see how they work out with there new teams. The only upside to the Laffs that I can think of is Stempniak shoots Right and theres not many of them and if he can get close to 30 G regularily the Laffs might actually win this trade. The Blues will be a power house soon enough anyway and Steen is a good shut down guy and the Blues needed one so its hard to say which team is better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Sigh.. they signed burke and the star comments how he could be introduced during the coast to coast HNIC coverage on Saturday. All is right in Leaf nation again and the CBC is right back on the bandwagon (they never really got off, they just allowed habs games in regional coverage). When are the habs going to be coast to coast coverage on the CBC on a Saturday night when they are not playing the leafs and the leafs are playing (but only shown in Toronto) ???? How about Ottawa?? Will they ever get their day in the sun on the CBC, or will they be regulated to more regional coverage.... I want my tax dollars back.. why should I contribute to leaf TV and then have to pay extra for RDS just to see a Canadian team????? GRRRRRRRR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Sigh.. they signed burke and the star comments how he could be introduced during the coast to coast HNIC coverage on Saturday. All is right in Leaf nation again and the CBC is right back on the bandwagon (they never really got off, they just allowed habs games in regional coverage). When are the habs going to be coast to coast coverage on the CBC on a Saturday night when they are not playing the leafs and the leafs are playing (but only shown in Toronto) ???? How about Ottawa?? Will they ever get their day in the sun on the CBC, or will they be regulated to more regional coverage.... I want my tax dollars back.. why should I contribute to leaf TV and then have to pay extra for RDS just to see a Canadian team????? GRRRRRRRR. To be fair it only makes sense for CBC. Toronto is the largest population centre in Canada, the majority of Canadiens fans have access to all Canadiens games through almost basic cable (it's not pay-per-view or even an expansive specialized channel like the Movie Network, Playboy, or NHL centre Ice), and the majority of Canadiens fans also happen to be localized in a francophone province. If anything perhaps they should re-introduce Saturday night games on SRC (French CBC), that would make more sense. The are already plenty of Canadian teams fighting for air time over CBC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 To be fair it only makes sense for CBC. Toronto is the largest population centre in Canada, the majority of Canadiens fans have access to all Canadiens games through almost basic cable (it's not pay-per-view or even an expansive specialized channel like the Movie Network, Playboy, or NHL centre Ice), and the majority of Canadiens fans also happen to be localized in a francophone province. If anything perhaps they should re-introduce Saturday night games on SRC (French CBC), that would make more sense. The are already plenty of Canadian teams fighting for air time over CBC... I am not saying they should not show the leaf game in Toronto, but why is the rest of the country being cultivated as leaf fans. People down east and out west never get to see the habs or Ottawa. This always comes back to bite them in the playoffs when Toronto is not in and most of the country has never really seen Ottawa or the Habs, so interest is low. Note that late games are nicely rotated among the western teams, so when any of them make the playoffs, rating are better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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