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What's next for the Habs?


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It's a bit premature to start this thread, but I'm confident that it will be started tomorrow night anyway.  Fire Bergevin doesn't capture all of the woes for this team IMO.

 

My view on this team last year was similar to what I'm feeling now at the end of their playoff. I asked myself, what is this teams identity? It seems like a bit of an identity crisis. You have forwards who only seem to be able to score from the rush, and defense molded around a (play it heavy, carry the puck in and cycle) style. Yet the coaches (julien nor ducharme) didn't seem to adapt the style. Last year in the bubble, we saw Kotkaniemi really pick up his play when he was able to make the big hit in the neutral and attacking zone. Then we signed Anderson and Perry. I thought OK, makes sense. The team is transitioning to a heavy team and we will see more cycling, owning the wall, and heavy play. Instead we are seeing some weird hybrid of, play it heavy, but score from the rush. Most of this is on Bergevin. He built this team. But I can't help but be annoyed at the coaches as well. I really think the coaches (Both of them) missed the mark. They didn't play the hand in front of them. This team is built for 5 up, 5 cycle, 5 back. So practice it and develope a system based on that. IMO, this year's fail falls equally on the coaches as it does Bergevin. 

 

My thought is that it's time for a fresh view. I want Bergevin, Timmins, Ducharme, and Burrows terminated Friday morning after the loss.  After that, what's next? For me, let's take on those bad contracts in exchange for picks. Try to move Weber. Blow up the old core. Stock pile picks (No Timmins), and build a dynamic team with possession analytics and speed in mind. We tried a heavy team and it went horribly wrong.

 

What type of team do you want to see? 

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Well I would like to hear from all those who say a full 5 year rebuild doesn't work. Getting a top 10 pick or less for 5 years does work. Look at all the top team's today that are favorite to win the cup, they have all gone through a 5 year rebuild plan and have gone 2-3 elite players out of it.

 

Yet here we are the same old bubble team picking in the middle of the pack. The same regular season collapses every year around the same time every year. The same team that can't score in the playoffs. Multiple coaching change's, multiple player changes,  2 different gm's yet same results all the time. 

 

Hows this possible?

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We need to eliminate the fox hole and any hint of old boys club thinking. 
 

1997 is gone but we continue to live there. 
 

Bergevin was handed a playoff team that he didn’t like. We were a small, fast team built for the modern NHL. He starts to build us a slow, tough team full of character and we start losing. 
 

We lose for a bit the Bergevin has an epiphany that the league is moving in the direction of speed and skill (dumbass). Molson announces new, better hotdogs and Bergevin announces the retool. 
 

We then start moving toward drafting speed and skill. The retool is underway and greatness is coming. I mean just look at our prospect pool. 
 

Working towards the speed and skill retool, Bergevin sees an opportunity to build his dream defence. Large, slow, lumbering men full of character and he goes for it - undoing his retool towards speed and skill. 
 

I don’t know but when I consider everything I can only come to one conclusion - the Habs are managed by idiots 

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I agree with what you are saying PMK. I think this organization needs a full clean house with no left overs. All management, all coaching staff, all scouting staff including  Timmins. 

 

Bring someone in who knows how to fix this, even if that means they don't speak French, just hire an interpreter. 

 

But we can go on like this. 

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36 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

It's a bit premature to start this thread, but I'm confident that it will be started tomorrow night anyway.  Fire Bergevin doesn't capture all of the woes for this team IMO.

 

My view on this team last year was similar to what I'm feeling now at the end of their playoff. I asked myself, what is this teams identity? It seems like a bit of an identity crisis. You have forwards who only seem to be able to score from the rush, and defense molded around a (play it heavy, carry the puck in and cycle) style. Yet the coaches (julien nor ducharme) didn't seem to adapt the style. Last year in the bubble, we saw Kotkaniemi really pick up his play when he was able to make the big hit in the neutral and attacking zone. Then we signed Anderson and Perry. I thought OK, makes sense. The team is transitioning to a heavy team and we will see more cycling, owning the wall, and heavy play. Instead we are seeing some weird hybrid of, play it heavy, but score from the rush. Most of this is on Bergevin. He built this team. But I can't help but be annoyed at the coaches as well. I really think the coaches (Both of them) missed the mark. They didn't play the hand in front of them. This team is built for 5 up, 5 cycle, 5 back. So practice it and develope a system based on that. IMO, this year's fail falls equally on the coaches as it does Bergevin. 

 

My thought is that it's time for a fresh view. I want Bergevin, Timmins, Ducharme, and Burrows terminated Friday morning after the loss.  After that, what's next? For me, let's take on those bad contracts in exchange for picks. Try to move Weber. Blow up the old core. Stock pile picks (No Timmins), and build a dynamic team with possession analytics and speed in mind. We tried a heavy team and it went horribly wrong.

 

What type of team do you want to see? 

 

I agree with a lot of your points. I think MB started in the right direction when he traded Pacioretty while he was still in his prime and got an excellent return. At the time I wanted him to do more of that as I had no illusions that the Habs were going to contend seriously in the next couple years.  He has accumulated draft picks, made an excellent acquisition in Anderson who is still young enough and can skate and made a great signing in Toffoli.

 

I think MB has done a lot of good things the last couple years but it seemed like 1/2 rebuild to me. I would have been fine with trading Petry while the return was high. I would have gladly suffered for another  year or 2 with not making the playoffs if the future was worth it but I also think MB would have faced tremendous criticism in Montreal for doing that. 

 

What type of team do I want?   That's an easy one. A team that can skate and move the puck, able to transition quickly from defence to offence. A team with grit and discipline. Size is great but size without mobility is not much good. You also need the right kind of leadership. 

 

I haven't seen anything from Ducharme that justifies a long term contract. Maybe he hasn't had long enough with the team to properly judge but I haven't seen any type of improvement.  I get the criticism of MB but I like a lot of things he has done the last couple years. Maybe we would be firing him just as he has finally turned into a good GM. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

It's a bit premature to start this thread,

Agree 100%

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

So tomorrow night after the game then? 

Most likely; but, it is the Leafs and one more win could start them on fast track to the golf course.

Habs are...due and should be well rested after mailing in last 3 games...cept of course the poor goalie.

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2010 were down and counted out when was 3-1 vs Caps, then won both elimination gms vs Pens...so not hopeless and the 1st time Habs have been counted out prematurely.

 

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2 minutes ago, DON said:

2010 were down and counted out when was 3-1 vs Caps, then won both elimination gms vs Pens...so not hopeless and the 1st time Habs have been counted out prematurely.

 

 

My recollection of that wonderful series is that we played the Caps very well in those games and being struck by the impression that the Caps were too loose, not fundamentally sound. I remember feeling very strongly that we deserved better than being down 3-1. By contrast, the Leafs have been manifestly the superior team for the last three games, completely outclassing the Habs in pretty much every area except goal.

 

It ain't over until it's over, but the dynamic of having been largely owned by a much stronger team for three straight games tends to snuff out any optimism.

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47 minutes ago, DON said:

Most likely; but, it is the Leafs and one more win could start them on fast track to the golf course.

Habs are...due and should be well rested after mailing in last 3 games...cept of course the poor goalie.

Whether or not the season is over, the fact remains that this team has an identity crisis. They did not make noise.  They were garbage all season and the time has come for a change. A win or two in the playoffs won't change that for me.

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4 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Whether or not the season is over, the fact remains that this team has an identity crisis. They did not make noise.  They were garbage all season and the time has come for a change. A win or two in the playoffs won't change that for me.

 Off-season 'debate' could wait for one more day, agree end of season is almost a certainty to be very soon and skaters have shown zero reason to have any faith in them, but still bit premature. Almost bound to win one sooner or later arnt they? If is tomorrow, ol Leafs may buckle and collapse..one can dream.:pray:

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17 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

My recollection of that wonderful series is that we played the Caps very well in those games and being struck by the impression that the Caps were too loose, not fundamentally sound. I remember feeling very strongly that we deserved better than being down 3-1. By contrast, the Leafs have been manifestly the superior team for the last three games, completely outclassing the Habs in pretty much every area except goal.

 

It ain't over until it's over, but the dynamic of having been largely owned by a much stronger team for three straight games tends to snuff out any optimism.


We were under absolute siege versus that Washington team and the only thing that led us to win was Halak playing like a literal stop sign. There’s no way we should have even been close in that 2010 series. 
 

The Habs have been underwhelming during this series but quite honestly whether or not I think the Leafs have a decent squad, they haven’t exactly made me nervous every time they touch the puck. Washington would consistently raise my blood pressure and the main players who showed up for the Habs were Halak and Cammalleri. Sure, the Habs haven’t shown anything to induce optimism but I fully believe we have a chance in Game 5. For me, it’s just how dangerous that Washington team was versus this Leafs squad. So far it’s only been Nylander and Spezza who would be this years version of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, prime Holtby, et al. 
 

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2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:


We were under absolute siege versus that Washington team and the only thing that led us to win was Halak playing like a literal stop sign. There’s no way we should have even been close in that 2010 series. 
 

The Habs have been underwhelming during this series but quite honestly whether or not I think the Leafs have a decent squad, they haven’t exactly made me nervous every time they touch the puck. Washington would consistently raise my blood pressure and the main players who showed up for the Habs were Halak and Cammalleri. Sure, the Habs haven’t shown anything to induce optimism but I fully believe we have a chance in Game 5. For me, it’s just how dangerous that Washington team was versus this Leafs squad. So far it’s only been Nylander and Spezza who would be this years version of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, prime Holtby, et al. 
 

 

Re: Washington, what I recall more specifically is that we played them pretty tight and yet were down 3-1. It was only after that point that WASH went nuts and Halak took over. But even there, despite giving up a ton of shots, the Habs under Martin were playing quite an innovative defensive style based on happily ceding loads of shots from outside the slot, but blocking shots like crazy and not giving up rebounds. It was a bend-don’t-break style that granted the other team inflated shot totals (and it became briefly quite influential; remember the shot blocking craze that took off in the early 2010s? It was an imitation of Martin’s “system”). But the whole method would still have been futile if the Habs were unable to counter-punch by scoring opportunistic goals, which they did, both because they had genuine scorers in Cammy and Gionta, and because Washington’s goalie was garbage. So was Piitsburgh’s come to think of it.

 

I maintain that these Leafs have been underrated on this board. They may not win the Cup, but they are the real deal in terms of a truly strong, battle-hardened team that is ready to win. The Habs, by contrast, are a bubble team and look like it.

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11 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... I maintain that these Leafs have been underrated on this board. They may not win the Cup, but they are the real deal in terms of a truly strong, battle-hardened team that is ready to win. The Habs, by contrast, are a bubble team and look like it.

Agree they are underrated by many ... Leafs scored 28 more goals than the Habs in the regular season and gave up 20 less ... a goal per game game difference

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2 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Agree they are underrated by many ... Leafs scored 28 more goals than the Habs in the regular season and gave up 20 less ... a goal per game game difference


They are better than they’ve been in many years but to compare regular season is hard to say that given they played the same 6 teams all year. 
They looked awfully average against Ottawa, Vancouver many times.

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16 minutes ago, hockeyrealist said:

They are better than they’ve been in many years but to compare regular season is hard to say that given they played the same 6 teams all year. 
They looked awfully average against Ottawa, Vancouver many times.

Given the restricted schedule the regular season results are IMO pretty comparable ... Ottawa made the habs look ordinary as well ... and if Montreal played Vancouver much better than TO did, that means the Leafs did much better against some other teams to finish 18 points ahead of the Habs .

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31 minutes ago, hockeyrealist said:


They are better than they’ve been in many years but to compare regular season is hard to say that given they played the same 6 teams all year. 
They looked awfully average against Ottawa, Vancouver many times.

 

If you take away a horrible start, Ottawa made a lot of teams look pretty average. Toronto is a very good team and a legitimate Stanley Cup contender. 

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

If you take away a horrible start, Ottawa made a lot of teams look pretty average. Toronto is a very good team and a legitimate Stanley Cup contender. 

They made us look real bad in a lot of games as well.

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On 5/26/2021 at 11:28 AM, BCHabnut said:

My thought is that it's time for a fresh view. I want Bergevin, Timmins, Ducharme, and Burrows terminated Friday morning after the loss.  After that, what's next? For me, let's take on those bad contracts in exchange for picks. Try to move Weber. Blow up the old core. Stock pile picks (No Timmins), and build a dynamic team with possession analytics and speed in mind. We tried a heavy team and it went horribly wrong.

 

Bergevin ... that's going to be Molson's call. And we have a whole thread for that.

 

But I'll point out that Timmins has been in charge of amateur scouting since the 2014 draft. The 2014 choices were not impressive (Scherbak in 1st, Lernout in 3rd, no pick in 2nd) but in 2015 he chose Juulsen at 26th overall and Vejdemo 87th, again no pick in 2nd round. And from 2016 (Sergachev in 1st, Mete in 4th) on the results are at least respectable, even if we didn't find many hidden jewels in the first round. (Losing Juulsen or Sergachev is not really on Timmins.)

 

So, I'm not convinced that firing Timmins would necessarily improve our amateur scouting or our drafting. Maybe, but it could also well make it worse.

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8 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

So, I'm not convinced that firing Timmins would necessarily improve our amateur scouting or our drafting. Maybe, but it could also well make it worse.

But, at this point many HabFans just want blood and to see pink slips! And worry about finding another french GM that looks to be a an upgrade later.

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49 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Bergevin ... that's going to be Molson's call. And we have a whole thread for that.

 

But I'll point out that Timmins has been in charge of amateur scouting since the 2014 draft. The 2014 choices were not impressive (Scherbak in 1st, Lernout in 3rd, no pick in 2nd) but in 2015 he chose Juulsen at 26th overall and Vejdemo 87th, again no pick in 2nd round. And from 2016 (Sergachev in 1st, Mete in 4th) on the results are at least respectable, even if we didn't find many hidden jewels in the first round. (Losing Juulsen or Sergachev is not really on Timmins.)

 

So, I'm not convinced that firing Timmins would necessarily improve our amateur scouting or our drafting. Maybe, but it could also well make it worse.


You make good points. 
 

I think firing all of them together is part of a shift in culture and the way the team thinks hockey. Even if Timmins is decent. 

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Timmins is average at best, there was a good article about a year ago about his failures. 

 

A monkey can throw poop at a wall at something will stick. he found some decent late rounders top picks have been embarrassing 

 

Caufield fell into there lap, Commandant will correct me if im wrong but he was rated 5-8 and fell to 16, Sergachev was 5th i think and dropped to 9  

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I still think this group is better than this series suggests... but our future is bleak.

 

Our 2024-2025 season will possibly feature. A 37yo Price, 39 yo Weber, 37yo Petry and 33yo Gallagher.

All likely broken beyond repair. For a total of what? 31M? 🤣

 

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Timmins is average at best, there was a good article about a year ago about his failures. 

 

A monkey can throw poop at a wall at something will stick. he found some decent late rounders top picks have been embarrassing 

 

Caufield fell into there lap, Commandant will correct me if im wrong but he was rated 5-8 and fell to 16, Sergachev was 5th i think and dropped to 9  

Agree. I've seen enough of him. He sucks

 

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