alfredoh2009 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 hours ago, Commandant said: He turned his coat on an organization that he didnt want to leave but traded him anyway and then leaked shit about him to the media? Hes the guy you are upset at over that? What answer would make you happy, please tell me and I will cut and paste it Or is my previous posting not clear enough? I could also tell you how I feel about other players as a bonus joking aside for me, once a player leaves the organization, he is gone from my fandom Same for Markov, Koivu, briefly Pleks, etc. For some reason PK is remembered like a magic player that would have brought glory days to the Habs.. well, didn’t happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 22 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: What answer would make you happy, please tell me and I will cut and paste it Or is my previous posting not clear enough? I could also tell you how I feel about other players as a bonus joking aside for me, once a player leaves the organization, he is gone from my fandom Same for Markov, Koivu, briefly Pleks, etc. For some reason PK is remembered like a magic player that would have brought glory days to the Habs.. well, didn’t happen I understand that once a player leaves, hes gone from fandom. Im just asking why you think he's a turncoat? Why is he a traitor when he never asked to leave the team? I just reserve the term turncoat for someone who actually turns their back on an organization. Like Id understand if someone said that about Dany Heatley asking to be traded from Ottawa, or Pronger in Edmonton. I just want to know what PK did to be considered a traitor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 13 hours ago, Commandant said: I understand that once a player leaves, hes gone from fandom. Im just asking why you think he's a turncoat? Why is he a traitor when he never asked to leave the team? I just reserve the term turncoat for someone who actually turns their back on an organization. Like Id understand if someone said that about Dany Heatley asking to be traded from Ottawa, or Pronger in Edmonton. I just want to know what PK did to be considered a traitor? Agreed. Turncoats are guys like Adam Foote who claimed to be willing to resign in Columbus, but on trade deadline day had a private jet waiting to take him to Denver to sign for less than what Columbus had offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 14 hours ago, Commandant said: I understand that once a player leaves, hes gone from fandom. Im just asking why you think he's a turncoat? Why is he a traitor when he never asked to leave the team? I just reserve the term turncoat for someone who actually turns their back on an organization. Like Id understand if someone said that about Dany Heatley asking to be traded from Ottawa, or Pronger in Edmonton. I just want to know what PK did to be considered a traitor? Yeah. If anything, it was Bergevin who was disingenuous. His constant denial of his intent of trading Subban right up to the night of the trade is a clear indication if that. The fact that Subban went to the final and was a Norris candidate again the year after the trade shows Subban wasn’t the issue. MB’s mishandling of Markov was horrible. No can still convince me that a two year deal for Markov wasn't a better move to make than signing Savard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 49 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said: Agreed. Turncoats are guys like Adam Foote who claimed to be willing to resign in Columbus, but on trade deadline day had a private jet waiting to take him to Denver to sign for less than what Columbus had offered. Or Gaudreau- wanting to go home, and to a team that had a better chance of winning🙄 took less money, still has to fly home, and on a worse team😆. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 15 hours ago, Commandant said: I understand that once a player leaves, hes gone from fandom. Im just asking why you think he's a turncoat? Why is he a traitor when he never asked to leave the team? I just reserve the term turncoat for someone who actually turns their back on an organization. Like Id understand if someone said that about Dany Heatley asking to be traded from Ottawa, or Pronger in Edmonton. I just want to know what PK did to be considered a traitor? I would need to dig up interviews he has given since the trade. He was always about himself and he always played the audience to like him instead of being honest and transparent. I probably missed any interview where he has come clean on what his dedication to the Habs team was when he played here and why so many team members then didn't like him. I won't look for these interviews as I don't care for PK. I just find it revisionist and rich to paint him as such a pure innocent victim who's talent was squandered while in MTL What did he ever win after he was traded? What did he prove wrong to his former teammates and critics? Traitor/turncoat: that is what comes to mind when I think of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said: I would need to dig up interviews he has given since the trade. He was always about himself and he always played the audience to like him instead of being honest and transparent. I probably missed any interview where he has come clean on what his dedication to the Habs team was when he played here and why so many team members then didn't like him. I won't look for these interviews as I don't care for PK. I just find it revisionist and rich to paint him as such a pure innocent victim who's talent was squandered while in MTL What did he ever win after he was traded? What did he prove wrong to his former teammates and critics? Traitor/turncoat: that is what comes to mind when I think of him. Your post makes about as much sense as Trump’s statement that McCain’s “not a war hero”, and questioned that “He’s a war hero because he was captured?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Love Subban or hate him, he never made the decision to leave the Habs, that was a team decision, so I can't see how "traitor" would be an appropriate word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 39 minutes ago, tomh009 said: Love Subban or hate him, he never made the decision to leave the Habs, that was a team decision, so I can't see how "traitor" would be an appropriate word. Thats my point. You can love him or hate him, thats all personal choice. No one forces anyone to be a fan of any player But the label of traitor or turncoat should based in some kind of facts and there isnt anything in his history to suggest he is a traitor. He wanted to stay and Bergevin traded him. Then someone in the team leaked a bunch of crap about him to Marinaro and other Montreal media. What he said in any interviews after that doesnt make him a traitor. Its understandable why anyone would be hurt by that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 I don't think traitor is the correct word either, but I do understand @alfredoh2009's resentment. I believe that it was Subban's 1 interview that sealed his fate with the Habs. That 1 season he got only 6 goals and made a dumbass comment in an interview that he wasn't there to score goals. Meanwhile, no GM pays a dman 9+ mil/yr just to play defense. He was supposed to be scoring along with getting PPG that year and he didn't, and he also made numerous blunders near the o-zone blueline that led to goals against. Plus, that year the Habs missed the playoffs so I personally point my finger directly at Subban for that. I was sorta surprised when I hard of the trade, but I wasn't shocked by it at all. Subban's style of play reminds me of players like Gustafsson, where the player can create goals but also causes them. The only way it makes sense to have a player like that is if they win more games than they lose. Subban failed to do that in his last year with the Habs so they dumped him before his ntc kicked in and they'd be stuck with him for the remainder of that contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 12 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: I don't think traitor is the correct word either, but I do understand @alfredoh2009's resentment. I believe that it was Subban's 1 interview that sealed his fate with the Habs. That 1 season he got only 6 goals and made a dumbass comment in an interview that he wasn't there to score goals. Meanwhile, no GM pays a dman 9+ mil/yr just to play defense. He was supposed to be scoring along with getting PPG that year and he didn't, and he also made numerous blunders near the o-zone blueline that led to goals against. Plus, that year the Habs missed the playoffs so I personally point my finger directly at Subban for that. I was sorta surprised when I hard of the trade, but I wasn't shocked by it at all. Subban's style of play reminds me of players like Gustafsson, where the player can create goals but also causes them. The only way it makes sense to have a player like that is if they win more games than they lose. Subban failed to do that in his last year with the Habs so they dumped him before his ntc kicked in and they'd be stuck with him for the remainder of that contract. that is part of it, but also after the Norris worthy season he continued being about himself instead of putting his talent and effort towards helping the team win a Stanley cup. A big part of the Habs success rested on his performance in the team and he was not mature enough to lead the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 The idea that Subban was some high-risk player was, if memory serves, belied by advanced stats. My own observation at the time was that, when Subban did get himself into trouble, he almost always got himself out of it - a point his risk-averse, constipated critics generally missed. He was both chippy and physical; he could rush the puck and make plays; and as for goal-scoring, he had a pretty good cannon from the point, averaging about 11 goals per season for his first eight years in the league. Was he the greatest D-man in league history? Of course not. The reason some of us found the whole story of Subban on the Habs so frustrating was that here the Habs had a home-grown prospect, a difference-maker, all-star and eventual Norris winner, who played with flair, was exciting and charismatic, beloved by fans, and who loved and embraced Montreal to boot. He showed up every single shift and loved big games, excelling in the playoffs. As for whether he could "lead" the Habs to success, the question is absurd. He went to the Finals the exact same number of times as the supposedly superb leader of leaders Shea Weber. The Habs also went to the semi-finals with Subban (crushing the mighty Chara Bruins along the way, I might add). The point is: instead of acting like normal humans and EMBRACING this asset, the Habs old-school Neanderthal management from the very beginning treated him as some sort of disease. He had to be broken, turned into a cookie-cutter joyless NHL robot, bullied and subordinated to Michel Therrien's so-called "system" - Therrien who, it should be remembered, disliked Subban even before he became coach. He had to be given a "bridge" deal because they didn't like him. Too flashy, not old-school enough. Didn't matter that he delivered on the ice every damned night. What mattered was that he didn't know his "place." (I won't even get into the question of subliminal racism here, since whenever I raise it people freak out, not understanding the subliminal aspect of how racism often works). Having been given a "show me" contract, Subban proceeded to show them, all right - he went out and won the Norris. Then Bergevin was angry at him for demanding full market value and getting the huge contract 🙄 What should have been a shining positive was turned into a sour negative by blinkered, uptight Habs dinosaurs. That's why I'm still pissed off about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: What should have been a shining positive was turned into a sour negative by blinkered, uptight Habs dinosaurs. That's why I'm still pissed off about it. I think you are in minority and we havent had to hear any BS about hall of fame and multiple norris winner d-man that PK is, in awhile and cant we just let the topic die sir.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: The idea that Subban was some high-risk player was, if memory serves, belied by advanced stats. My own observation at the time was that, when Subban did get himself into trouble, he almost always got himself out of it - a point his risk-averse, constipated critics generally missed. He was both chippy and physical; he could rush the puck and make plays; and as for goal-scoring, he had a pretty good cannon from the point, averaging about 11 goals per season for his first eight years in the league. Was he the greatest D-man in league history? Of course not. The reason some of us found the whole story of Subban on the Habs so frustrating was that here the Habs had a home-grown prospect, a difference-maker, all-star and eventual Norris winner, who played with flair, was exciting and charismatic, beloved by fans, and who loved and embraced Montreal to boot. He showed up every single shift and loved big games, excelling in the playoffs. As for whether he could "lead" the Habs to success, the question is absurd. He went to the Finals the exact same number of times as the supposedly superb leader of leaders Shea Weber. The Habs also went to the semi-finals with Subban (crushing the mighty Chara Bruins along the way, I might add). The point is: instead of acting like normal humans and EMBRACING this asset, the Habs old-school Neanderthal management from the very beginning treated him as some sort of disease. He had to be broken, turned into a cookie-cutter joyless NHL robot, bullied and subordinated to Michel Therrien's so-called "system" - Therrien who, it should be remembered, disliked Subban even before he became coach. He had to be given a "bridge" deal because they didn't like him. Too flashy, not old-school enough. Didn't matter that he delivered on the ice every damned night. What mattered was that he didn't know his "place." (I won't even get into the question of subliminal racism here, since whenever I raise it people freak out, not understanding the subliminal aspect of how racism often works). Having been given a "show me" contract, Subban proceeded to show them, all right - he went out and won the Norris. Then Bergevin was angry at him for demanding full market value and getting the huge contract 🙄 What should have been a shining positive was turned into a sour negative by blinkered, uptight Habs dinosaurs. That's why I'm still pissed off about it. 100% agree on all points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 1 hour ago, DON said: I think you are in minority and we havent had to hear any BS about hall of fame and multiple norris winner d-man that PK is, in awhile and cant we just let the topic die sir.. Well at least he has a minority of 2. And it’s always the Subban haters who usually tend to resurrect the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 6 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said: Yeah. If anything, it was Bergevin who was disingenuous. His constant denial of his intent of trading Subban right up to the night of the trade is a clear indication if that. Was it him being disingenuous or just playing the usual game? If you want to trade someone, you don't go out and proclaim publicly that you're shopping him. That tanks his value. You say that we're not trying to move him and then behind the scenes, you test the waters to see what's there. If a GM comes out and says they're not shopping a player, it really doesn't mean much of anything, it's just following the standard playbook which every single NHL GM does. The next time a GM says that, don't believe them. Look at Hughes with Lehkonen leading up to the deadline. Days before, it was all 'we don't want to move him, we're not shopping him' but as soon as he got an offer he liked, Lehkonen was gone. That's how the 'game' works, say one thing and do the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 1 hour ago, dlbalr said: Was it him being disingenuous or just playing the usual game? If you want to trade someone, you don't go out and proclaim publicly that you're shopping him. That tanks his value. You say that we're not trying to move him and then behind the scenes, you test the waters to see what's there. If a GM comes out and says they're not shopping a player, it really doesn't mean much of anything, it's just following the standard playbook which every single NHL GM does. The next time a GM says that, don't believe them. Look at Hughes with Lehkonen leading up to the deadline. Days before, it was all 'we don't want to move him, we're not shopping him' but as soon as he got an offer he liked, Lehkonen was gone. That's how the 'game' works, say one thing and do the opposite. It’s one thing to move a UFA, and another to move a key guy locked up long term. The only similar level of denials-and-trade I can recall was the Flames proclaiming that we are NOT moving Phaneauf, and then trading him the next day to the leafs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 11 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said: It’s one thing to move a UFA, and another to move a key guy locked up long term. The only similar level of denials-and-trade I can recall was the Flames proclaiming that we are NOT moving Phaneauf, and then trading him the next day to the leafs. Lehkonen wasn't a UFA (RFA with another year of control), but point taken. I just don't think this was Bergevin being singularly unfair to Subban but rather him just doing what any GM should and not show his hand publicly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 17 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: that is part of it, but also after the Norris worthy season he continued being about himself instead of putting his talent and effort towards helping the team win a Stanley cup. A big part of the Habs success rested on his performance in the team and he was not mature enough to lead the way None of that makes him a turncoat or traitor. No one is saying PK is perfect, he wasn't. And you are free to criticise him or not like him for any reason. I just take exception to calling him a turn coat. What did he do that made him a traitor to the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 16 hours ago, DON said: I think you are in minority and we havent had to hear any BS about hall of fame and multiple norris winner d-man that PK is, in awhile and cant we just let the topic die sir.. The Habs are honouring him tomorrow night, which is why the topic came up. Also you don't have to read about any topic that you don't want to read about. No one is forcing you to read what others want to discuss. Even if we are a minority (which i'm not sure about) but those who want to discuss PK can without bothering you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 20 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I would need to dig up interviews he has given since the trade. He was always about himself and he always played the audience to like him instead of being honest and transparent. I probably missed any interview where he has come clean on what his dedication to the Habs team was when he played here and why so many team members then didn't like him. I won't look for these interviews as I don't care for PK. I just find it revisionist and rich to paint him as such a pure innocent victim who's talent was squandered while in MTL What did he ever win after he was traded? What did he prove wrong to his former teammates and critics? Traitor/turncoat: that is what comes to mind when I think of him. None of what you wrote fits the definition of traitor/turncoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 15 minutes ago, Commandant said: None of what you wrote fits the definition of traitor/turncoat. you are right, you win. No más! Happy ? But I still feel the same about PK, turn coat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 I prefer to remember Subban for his contributions off the ice. He gave generously and what he has done will leave a lasting mark for the better. The rest of the stuff doesn't matter to me anymore. I never thought of him as a traitor. His style obviously rubbed some people the wrong way but he was always true to himself and he is a good person. I wish him nothing but the best in his future endeavours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Regardless of whether we liked PK or were happy to see him go, the “traitor” label makes no sense. He grew up a Habs fan, loved Montreal, wanted to stay, and was traded away by a management group that hated him. How that makes him a “traitor” defies understanding, unless we think he should have retired rather than play elsewhere 🙄 If we must use the language of “betrayal” it’d be better suited to the management group that crapped on him during his time here and then dealt him away against his will. However, I don’t think either side really “betrayed” the other - treason is not the right vocabulary for what went on between PK and the Habs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 39 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Regardless of whether we liked PK or were happy to see him go, the “traitor” label makes no sense. He grew up a Habs fan, loved Montreal, wanted to stay, and was traded away by a management group that hated him. How that makes him a “traitor” defies understanding, unless we think he should have retired rather than play elsewhere 🙄 If we must use the language of “betrayal” it’d be better suited to the management group that crapped on him during his time here and then dealt him away against his will. However, I don’t think either side really “betrayed” the other - treason is not the right vocabulary for what went on between PK and the Habs. I do not want to defend how I feel, or go and find the interviews I remember. But that is how I feel. I cannot lie about how I feel, should I ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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