Jeff Gorton interview with Marinaro

[Neech]

16 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I do not want to defend how I feel, or go and find the interviews I remember. But that is how I feel. I cannot lie about how I feel, should I ?!

 

OK so your feelings don't make sense and are not backed up by any good reasons. It's up to you if you don't want to reevaluate them, but it also tells us how much value we should give them.

[alfredoh2009]

21 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

OK so your feelings don't make sense and are not backed up by any good reasons. It's up to you if you don't want to reevaluate them, but it also tells us how much value we should give them.

zero

[BCHabnut]

I loved PK early on. There were concerns with his fights in practice. Why was it always PK? But I didn't let it affect my opinion of him.

    This next bit will be countered with tons of arguments which I heard when it happened,  but I stand by it. When PK played hardball after his bridge deal, he signed as the highest paid defenseman in the NHL, and if memory serves me, the highest paid player, because Kane and towes extensions hadn't kicked in yet. When you make these demands, you need to honor them. You are essentially saying, Im the best hockey player in the world. His contract is what soured with me. I didn't like the Weber trade at the time, but I was happy to be freed of his ntc and albatross contract. At least Weber's contract was tradable. For me it was never an issue with the player, only the value of the contract.

[alfredoh2009]

8 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

I loved PK early on. There were concerns with his fights in practice. Why was it always PK? But I didn't let it affect my opinion of him.

    This next bit will be countered with tons of arguments which I heard when it happened,  but I stand by it. When PK played hardball after his bridge deal, he signed as the highest paid defenseman in the NHL, and if memory serves me, the highest paid player, because Kane and towes extensions hadn't kicked in yet. When you make these demands, you need to honor them. You are essentially saying, Im the best hockey player in the world. His contract is what soured with me. I didn't like the Weber trade at the time, but I was happy to be freed of his ntc and albatross contract. At least Weber's contract was tradable. For me it was never an issue with the player, only the value of the contract.

 

reading your comments helps me understand better why I feel how I feel. I think I feel this way because he never played up to the value of that contract as a Hab (or elsewhere), it didn't make the team better, it hamstrung the salary structure.

I felt he betrayed what the team was trying to do instead of taking less to allow for the team to get closer to a cup. Like Crosby and others have done over the years.

 

I felt betrayed then, and the interviews I remember supported my opinion at the time. IU know it does not make sense, I hardly understand exactly why I feel this way. I just do.

 

[huzer]

4 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I felt he betrayed what the team was trying to do instead of taking less to allow for the team to get closer to a cup. Like Crosby and others have done over the years.

 

Very few players take the mythical home team discount. The Habs had the salary structure through much of Bergevin's middle tenure to pay that, and it didn't hamstring any other signing. Most people were lamenting the Habs NOT spending to the cap. Where's the scorn for Price not living up to his $10.5m annually? Gallagher/Drouin/Anderson for not living up to their contracts?

 

Vegas still has 3 years to pay LTIR for Weber. I guess his 14 year albatross of a contract was a home team discount.

 

Anyway, people can disagree on players. I appreciated Subban as a non-robotic player/personality that genuinely appeared to have fun when he was on the ice. He was also a pretty darn good defenseman.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

13 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

reading your comments helps me understand better why I feel how I feel. I think I feel this way because he never played up to the value of that contract as a Hab (or elsewhere), it didn't make the team better, it hamstrung the salary structure.

I felt he betrayed what the team was trying to do instead of taking less to allow for the team to get closer to a cup. Like Crosby and others have done over the years.

 

I felt betrayed then, and the interviews I remember supported my opinion at the time. IU know it does not make sense, I hardly understand exactly why I feel this way. I just do.

 

That contract was 100% due to Bergevin’s outrageous mishandling of the entire negotiation. 
 

Bergevin played games and got screwed, how is that on PK?

 

I haven’t commented on PK at all because it’s water under the bridge but your turncoat label is unwarranted and misplaced 
 

 

[GHT120]

40 posts of Deja-vu ... as it has always been since PK was traded, nobody is going to convince anyone to change their mind.

[alfredoh2009]

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

40 posts of Deja-vu ... as it has always been since PK was traded, nobody is going to convince anyone to change their mind.

 

I know, I know.

I am just answering the questions but I agree with you. I am just regular guy posting on a forum on how he feels, not a professional hockey analyst. I do not even know why I feel this way and I am surprised it has created such a reaction.

who cares what Mr Potato Head thinks, really?!

 

I enjoy the banter though, its fun to talk about our favorite team

[BCHabnut]

3 hours ago, huzer said:

Very few players take the mythical home team discount. The Habs had the salary structure through much of Bergevin's middle tenure to pay that, and it didn't hamstring any other signing. Most people were lamenting the Habs NOT spending to the cap. Where's the scorn for Price not living up to his $10.5m annually? Gallagher/Drouin/Anderson for not living up to their contracts?

 

Vegas still has 3 years to pay LTIR for Weber. I guess his 14 year albatross of a contract was a home team discount.

 

Anyway, people can disagree on players. I appreciated Subban as a non-robotic player/personality that genuinely appeared to have fun when he was on the ice. He was also a pretty darn good defenseman.

Carey Price is a very good rebuttal to my comment. I hated his contract as well. But I wasn't as iritated by it. In hindsight he did not live up to his contract in the least. One playoff run cost 90 million. So why no animosity? I don't know. Not racism or subliminal racism so let's put that to bed.

 

Weber contract was worse, but was tradable and was front loaded making it more tradable. 

 

I agree on the third point.  Subvan is a dang likeable guy. Loaded with charisma. Was very fun to watch when he was a hab.

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

Carey Price is a very good rebuttal to my comment. I hated his contract as well. But I wasn't as iritated by it. In hindsight he did not live up to his contract in the least. One playoff run cost 90 million. So why no animosity? I don't know. Not racism or subliminal racism so let's put that to bed.

 

Weber contract was worse, but was tradable and was front loaded making it more tradable. 

 

I agree on the third point.  Subvan is a dang likeable guy. Loaded with charisma. Was very fun to watch when he was a hab.

Weber’s contract was/is longer than PK’s. the only reason it was tradeable was he couldnt play. We did end up having $19m on LTIR because of Orice and Weber. The preds were able to move Subban’s contract.

 

as far as Weber being more tradeable, Subban’s contract would have been up by now and no reason to pick up another bad contract like Dadanov.

why no hate for Gallagher who will be useless for another 4 years and has been a waste of cap space last year and this year.

[tomh009]

18 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

why no hate for Gallagher who will be useless for another 4 years and has been a waste of cap space last year and this year.

Why hate Gallagher? Bergevin offered him that contract, would you have turned it down? I'm sure Gallagher wants to play at a higher level than he is now, the desire is still there. So, I don't begrudge Gallagher for this contract, or Drouin for Bergevin having traded for him, or Korkaniemi for Bergevin having selected him third overall. Those are management decisions, I don't want to blame the players for those.

[hab29RETIRED]

43 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Why hate Gallagher? Bergevin offered him that contract, would you have turned it down? I'm sure Gallagher wants to play at a higher level than he is now, the desire is still there. So, I don't begrudge Gallagher for this contract, or Drouin for Bergevin having traded for him, or Korkaniemi for Bergevin having selected him third overall. Those are management decisions, I don't want to blame the players for those.

And the Subban contract wasn’t becuase of a Mgmt decision to play hardball?

[BCHabnut]

7 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Weber’s contract was/is longer than PK’s. the only reason it was tradeable was he couldnt play. We did end up having $19m on LTIR because of Orice and Weber. The preds were able to move Subban’s contract.

 

as far as Weber being more tradeable, Subban’s contract would have been up by now and no reason to pick up another bad contract like Dadanov.

why no hate for Gallagher who will be useless for another 4 years and has been a waste of cap space last year and this year.

Not true. Weber could be traded. Pk's ntc would have kicked in that summer and could not have been traded unless he agreed. Not sure on why or how it works but I'm not sure Nashville had to honor the ntc from subbans origional contract. The ntc would have made him him nearly impossible to trade.

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Not true. Weber could be traded. Pk's ntc would have kicked in that summer and could not have been traded unless he agreed. Not sure on why or how it works but I'm not sure Nashville had to honor the ntc from subbans origional contract. The ntc would have made him him nearly impossible to trade.

The length of Weber’s contract made it impossible to trade him until his actual salary dropped. By that point Subban’s contract would have been over. It’s why we had to wait until this year to move Weber’s contract. Last year with the higher actual salary, from what I recall there were issues with insurance.

 

there have been lots of players traded with NTC’s. I agree that it is harder, but not impossible.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

The craziest thing about the entire Subban situation to me was his donation. 
 

Subban: I donated millions to a Montreal hospital. 
 

Bergevin: How dare you do such a great thing WITHOUT ASKING FOR MY PERMISSION FIRST!

 

Yeah , what an asshole that PK is…

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

The craziest thing about the entire Subban situation to me was his donation. 
 

Subban: I donated millions to a Montreal hospital. 
 

Bergevin: How dare you do such a great thing WITHOUT ASKING FOR MY PERMISSION FIRST!

 

Yeah , what an asshole that PK is…

 

What a Traitor. 

[dlbalr]

14 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Not sure on why or how it works but I'm not sure Nashville had to honor the ntc from subbans origional contract. The ntc would have made him him nearly impossible to trade.

 

There was an old loophole in the CBA that said if a player was traded before his trade protection kicked in, the acquiring team wasn't obligated to honour that protection.  Nashville opted not to honour it which allowed them to flip him to New Jersey later.  That loophole has since been closed.

[Sir_Boagalott]

43 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

There was an old loophole in the CBA that said if a player was traded before his trade protection kicked in, the acquiring team wasn't obligated to honour that protection.  Nashville opted not to honour it which allowed them to flip him to New Jersey later.  That loophole has since been closed.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I was wondering how PK was traded to NJ because I doubt PK would have agreed to be traded to the Devils.  They weren't exactly a contender that PK might agree with when the Preds shipped him there.  

[Sir_Boagalott]

 

On 1/10/2023 at 4:28 PM, Prime Minister Koivu said:

That contract was 100% due to Bergevin’s outrageous mishandling of the entire negotiation. 
 

Bergevin played games and got screwed, how is that on PK?

 

I haven’t commented on PK at all because it’s water under the bridge but your turncoat label is unwarranted and misplaced 
 

 

 

I don't believe MB mishandled the negotiation itself, but the treatment and handling of the player. 

 

I previously agreed with how @alfredoh2009 feels about PK.  PK loved Montreal and only wanted to play for the Habs, so why did he demand the most money possible?  Who goes to arbitration asking for 8.75 mil and ends up with 500k more than the player was originally asking for?  That didn't make any sense and that's what pissed me right off.  However, I've changed my mind after watching that interview because PK answers those questions in the interview. 

 

Apparently, MB constantly bitched about him and didn't properly appreciate or value him.  That's why PK wouldn't give MB a deal and sign for less money.  If PK been praised and told that he's great, we love you, etc, then that contract amount probably never would have happened.  Its likely that it wasn't just PK either, that same feeling of underappreciation from MB is basically also said by Danault and  KK too.  

[alfredoh2009]

9 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

 

 

I don't believe MB mishandled the negotiation itself, but the treatment and handling of the player. 

 

I previously agreed with how @alfredoh2009 feels about PK.  PK loved Montreal and only wanted to play for the Habs, so why did he demand the most money possible?  Who goes to arbitration asking for 8.75 mil and ends up with 500k more than the player was originally asking for?  That didn't make any sense and that's what pissed me right off.  However, I've changed my mind after watching that interview because PK answers those questions in the interview. 

 

Apparently, MB constantly bitched about him and didn't properly appreciate or value him.  That's why PK wouldn't give MB a deal and sign for less money.  If PK been praised and told that he's great, we love you, etc, then that contract amount probably never would have happened.  Its likely that it wasn't just PK either, that same feeling of underappreciation from MB is basically also said by Danault and  KK too.  

and Markov and Pacioretty and Kovalev and Radulov

 

MB was a mean negotiator and a son of a birch with regards to the salary structure. Granted

 

but MB is not the only one that has spoken against PKs attitude, individualism and vanity. I even remember some ex teammates with the Preds made snarky remarks when he left.

 

I loved the player when he was here. My three kids, my wife and I watched him swirl around the ice like an angel at dawn. I was sad when he was traded, and my family never cared for the Habs after he left.

 

for some reason that I cannot explain, I still feel that he betrayed the Habs with his off-ice stuff. His dad said something like: being a Habs was like unwrapping a chirstmas gift for him, now he will have to learn how to be more mature (or be a stronger man) or something like that.

 

I am probably the only one in the world that feels that way, fine. but that is how I feel.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

2 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

 

 

I don't believe MB mishandled the negotiation itself, but the treatment and handling of the player. 

 

I previously agreed with how @alfredoh2009 feels about PK.  PK loved Montreal and only wanted to play for the Habs, so why did he demand the most money possible?  Who goes to arbitration asking for 8.75 mil and ends up with 500k more than the player was originally asking for?  That didn't make any sense and that's what pissed me right off.  However, I've changed my mind after watching that interview because PK answers those questions in the interview. 

 

Apparently, MB constantly bitched about him and didn't properly appreciate or value him.  That's why PK wouldn't give MB a deal and sign for less money.  If PK been praised and told that he's great, we love you, etc, then that contract amount probably never would have happened.  Its likely that it wasn't just PK either, that same feeling of underappreciation from MB is basically also said by Danault and  KK too.  

I don’t recall the details but I’m sure others can remember. 
 

Bergevin offered the guy like 3 million when he was worth 7 and Bergevin treated Subban like a piece of crap the entire time. 
 

So PK turned things around on Bergevin. 
 

If Bergevin had negotiated in good faith and professionally they would have settled at 7 million but he was an ass and he paid for it

[Sir_Boagalott]

 

 

The truth has been revealed:

2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I loved the player when he was here. My three kids, my wife and I watched him swirl around the ice like an angel at dawn. I was sad when he was traded, and my family never cared for the Habs after he left.

 

 

Everyone will understand and have sympathy for you @alfredoh2009now that they know you hate Subban because after he was traded your wife and kids turned into Sens fans.  Dam Subban, that homewrecker.  

[alfredoh2009]

2 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

 

The truth has been revealed:

 

 

Everyone will understand and have sympathy for you @alfredoh2009now that they know you hate Subban because after he was traded your wife and kids turned into Sens fans.  Dam Subban, that homewrecker.  

 

LOL

 

I think you nailed it. Dam Subban indeed !!!

 

LOL

[DON]

I miss seeing Weber playing as a Hab. Wonder how the current rookie d would of fed off of his mentorship?

 

Wonder if Weber has any plan on sticking with hockey with coaching, GM/owner of WHL franchise...or will simply retire from the sport? 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

8 minutes ago, DON said:

I miss seeing Weber playing as a Hab. Wonder how the current rookie d would of fed off of his mentorship?

 

Wonder if Weber has any plan on sticking with hockey with coaching, GM/owner of WHL franchise...or will simply retire from the sport? 

 

Weber would be very useful as a mentor to these kids, if he could still play. His game degenerated considerably over 2020-21, notwithstanding his tremendous playoff play, so I can't say I miss seeing him out there. The main thing is that we are not stuck with his Titanic of a contract. Not that I wish Weber any personal ill, but we got very, very lucky in that respect.

 

I'd love to see him return as an assistant coach at some point. (I doubt that he will - he wasn't happy to be traded and never seemed to love Montreal especially - and I imagine that Nashville would be the likeliest landing pad for him). But since he is still unretired, could he even be hired as a full-time assistant? Would that double-dipping raise any procedural issues with the insurance company, for example?

 

One thing that guys like Price and Weber need to do is come to terms with what they no doubt feel is a premature end to their careers. Price seems to have made that step, Weber may still be struggling with it. Who knows. So - in addition to the fact that he is still unretired - he may need a bit of time before his head is in a good place to take on a new role. Who knows.