2023-24 NHL discussion thread

[DON]

Ducks & Kracken win, yaaa.

Hawks vs Coyotes, big battle!

[DON]

Go Kings!

[Prime Minister Koivu]

https://x.com/friedgehnic/status/1719755018331357630?s=46&t=C6D_OzldSuuSefel4GDZoQ
 

Sens lose a first round pick over the Dadonov debacle. Sens choice of 2024, 25, 26

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

https://x.com/friedgehnic/status/1719755018331357630?s=46&t=C6D_OzldSuuSefel4GDZoQ
 

Sens lose a first round pick over the Dadonov debacle. Sens choice of 2024, 25, 26

 

Ahahahahaha whatever hurts those a-holes is OK by me

 

Reports are that Dorion is being fired. Hopefully they hire MB to replace him

[DON]

10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Reports are that Dorion is being fired. Hopefully they hire MB to replace him

Done deal, i think.

[alfredoh2009]

yes, it is done. I like how the new owner handled it. OTT finally has good ownership:

 

"Why I inherited this is beyond me," #Sens owner Michael Andlauer says of #NHL punishment and forfeiture of first-round draft pick from an incident 591 days ago some 18 months before he purchased team.

He doesn't understand why it took the league so long to render a decision.

— Frank Seravalli (@frank_seravalli) November 1, 2023

 

[TurdBurglar]

2 hours ago, DON said:

Done deal, i think.

Done deal, TSN is reporting he resigned.  Which means he was offered the option to resign or be fired. 

 

He's been on the hot seat since the beginning of the season for mismanaging the cap and not being able to sign Pinto.  The gambling suspension was not related to Pinto not signing by all reports I've read.  Ottawa didn't need much of a push to part with him. 

 

Going to be interesting to see what he does next.  You can't think any team really has him high on their list after botching a trade this bad and mismanaging the team's cap.  It wouldn't be overly shocking if other GMs are reluctant to deal with him as well.

[Sir_Boagalott]

3 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said:

He's been on the hot seat since the beginning of the season for mismanaging the cap and not being able to sign Pinto.  The gambling suspension was not related to Pinto not signing by all reports I've read.  Ottawa didn't need much of a push to part with him. 

 

 

 

I have heard that it is part of why Pinto is the only RFA that is still unsigned.  i.e. the Sens were made aware of the incident when training camps started.  So the Sens knew that Pinto would be suspended, but they didn't know for how long.  Either way, the Sens knew they would have more time to sign him, which they couldn't do anyway due to not enough cap space.  They needed that extra time, which they now have lots of.  

 

 

The Dadonov trade debacle doesn't really seem like it is that big of deal really to lose a 1st rnd pick over it.  However, rules are rules and the Sens did waste the Ducks and VGK time when they agreed to a trade that wasn't allowed to proceed.  

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

The Dadonov trade debacle doesn't really seem like it is that big of deal really to lose a 1st rnd pick over it.  

 

I think it is a big deal. Full disclosure is really important when placing trades and Dorion failed badly. I am glad the league responded with a severe penalty. 

[GHT120]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

... However, rules are rules and the Sens did waste the Ducks and VGK time when they agreed to a trade that wasn't allowed to proceed.  

 

 

They also violated the contractual rights of an NHL player.

[hab29RETIRED]

45 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I have heard that it is part of why Pinto is the only RFA that is still unsigned.  i.e. the Sens were made aware of the incident when training camps started.  So the Sens knew that Pinto would be suspended, but they didn't know for how long.  Either way, the Sens knew they would have more time to sign him, which they couldn't do anyway due to not enough cap space.  They needed that extra time, which they now have lots of.  

 

 

The Dadonov trade debacle doesn't really seem like it is that big of deal really to lose a 1st rnd pick over it.  However, rules are rules and the Sens did waste the Ducks and VGK time when they agreed to a trade that wasn't allowed to proceed.  

It’s ridiculous that they lose a #1 puck over a mistake, whereas Chicago loses nothing for the whole Beach fiasco. By comparison that should have warranted at least three #1 picks, and not just costed the Coach (who is no longer with the team) and the GM their jobs.

[hab29RETIRED]

42 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think it is a big deal. Full disclosure is really important when placing trades and Dorion failed badly. I am glad the league responded with a severe penalty. 

Depends if if it was an issue of intentionally not providing full disclosure or a mistake or oversight.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Depends if if it was an issue of intentionally not providing full disclosure or a mistake or oversight.

 

And how would you prove that it was an oversight instead of intentional?  Do you think CRA would be fine if I said that it was an oversight if I failed to declare income? Good faith is a critical element when making deals with other GM's.  Dorion failed miserably and the punishment was deserved. 

[hab29RETIRED]

7 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

And how would you prove that it was an oversight instead of intentional?  Do you think CRA would be fine if I said that it was an oversight if I failed to declare income? Good faith is a critical element when making deals with other GM's.  Dorion failed miserably and the punishment was deserved. 

Agreed it deserved punishment - but what was worse - what Chicago did or Ottawa?

[TurdBurglar]

10 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

And how would you prove that it was an oversight instead of intentional?  Do you think CRA would be fine if I said that it was an oversight if I failed to declare income? Good faith is a critical element when making deals with other GM's.  Dorion failed miserably and the punishment was deserved. 

I think you’re overthinking it.  Whether it was intentional or an oversight, the responsibility is on Ottawa to provide it.  The list was submitted, so Ottawa knew there was a list.  There’s nobody to blame but Ottawa.  

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

4 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said:

I think you’re overthinking it.  Whether it was intentional or an oversight, the responsibility is on Ottawa to provide it.  The list was submitted, so Ottawa knew there was a list.  There’s nobody to blame but Ottawa.  

 

Exactly. Ottawa is fully at fault. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

11 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Agreed it deserved punishment - but what was worse - what Chicago did or Ottawa?

 

What happened is Chicago is an entirely different matter and a horrible matter. You can't equate the two things.  One is a criminal matter and one is a contractual matter. 

[hab29RETIRED]

9 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

What happened is Chicago is an entirely different matter and a horrible matter. You can't equate the two things.  One is a criminal matter and one is a contractual matter. 

So which one should the league handled more harshly?  I think the league could have taken a stronger stand - the criminal repercussions were negligible for the franchise.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

28 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

So which one should the league handled more harshly?  I think the league could have taken a stronger stand - the criminal repercussions were negligible for the franchise.

 

I don't disagree, it seemed like the league should have done more.  I can't remember what the penalties were. 

[GHT120]

49 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

What happened is Chicago is an entirely different matter and a horrible matter. You can't equate the two things.  One is a criminal matter and one is a contractual matter. 

 

What happened was criminal but how the Blackhawks behaved, repetedly, "once" aware of the criminal acts is entirely under the jurisdiction of the NHL  ... Chicago's actions were a blemish on the reputation of the league ... punishment should have been FAR, FAR more severe.

[Sir_Boagalott]

8 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

They also violated the contractual rights of an NHL player.

 

Well, technically (and in a criminal law sense) they attempted to.  😁  That is a decent point though. 

 

6 hours ago, GHT120 said:

What happened was criminal but how the Blackhawks behaved, repetedly, "once" aware of the criminal acts is entirely under the jurisdiction of the NHL  ... Chicago's actions were a blemish on the reputation of the league ... punishment should have been FAR, FAR more severe.

 

I agree that it looks bad on the NHL for sure and that seems to be why so many people are bringing up the Hawks when they hear the Sens lost a 1st.  What punishment did the Hawks franchise receive?  I'm not sure if it was any, well other than they had to get rid of their GM.  Quenville got in trouble too but afaik he was with Flor at the time.  They are both basically blackballed from hockey but I don't recall any punishment being given to the team itself. 

 

It is rare that a team gets punished and loses picks.  The last time I can recall that happening is the Yotes, but does anybody remember what picks they lost?  I think it happened 4-5 yrs ago, where the Yotes got caught cheating at 1 of the combines.  They were weighing prospects and possibly doing speed tests etc before they should have been or something like that.  They definitely broke a rule and I'm sure they lost pick(s) over it.  IIRC, it was a 2nd or 3rd or possible both but I don't believe it was 1st though.  

 

>> edit:  it was the 2019 combine and the Yotes lost a 1st and a 2nd.  

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

What happened was criminal but how the Blackhawks behaved, repetedly, "once" aware of the criminal acts is entirely under the jurisdiction of the NHL  ... Chicago's actions were a blemish on the reputation of the league ... punishment should have been FAR, FAR more severe.

 

I don't disagree what Chicago allowed to happen was terrible, but we are talking about 2 totally different types of behaviour.  What happened in Chicago you don't punish by taking away draft picks, you punish by making heads roll. What do you think the penalties should have been for the Chicago organization?

 

My whole point is that losing a 1st round pick is a good punishment for not disclosing what should have been disclosed in trade talks. 

 

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of trying to compare sexual assault with failure to disclose important information in trade discussions. How do you possibly compare the two?

[Sir_Boagalott]

10 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I like how the new owner handled it. OTT finally has good ownership:

 

No doubt eh.  He seems to have a good sense of humor at least:

 

"The 73-page report that was shared with me last week stems from actions originated by our hockey club, unfortunately," Andlauer said. "Our duty of care was ignored, which set off events that embarrassed the league and pissed off two other NHL clubs."

 

"We were downright negligent. At the end of the day, if somebody gets traded, you include it with the current no-trade clause. I mean it's not that complicated," he said. "I think it's a very strong price to pay. But at the end of the day, this could have all been avoided and it wouldn't have been an issue."

 

He says he wasn't informed by Melnyk's team when he was buying the Sens but his team found out about it before the purchase went through.  However, he was not aware of Pinto before buying the team and as soon as he knew he told Dorion to not sign him.  

 

When the Devils singed Kovalchuk they got in trouble and were penalized a 1st but the team was sold before that happened.  After the sale the NHL rescinded it so the new owners didn't lose a pick for pervious managements mistakes.  

 

Info from this article:  https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/38796437/nhl-ottawa-senators-pierre-dorion-fired-gm-draft-next-moves

 

 

[Commandant]

While everything said about hurting the rights of the player is true.

 

Heres the thing no one is mentioning.  

 

The Sens also hurt Vegas by not disclosing.  They had a player who they thought they could trade anywhere instead of one with a no trade clause.  That asset is not worth as much with an NTC as it is if he didnt have one, so what they got in the Sens trade was a lesser asset than they thought they were getting.  In addition they spent time at the deadline to move him to make their cap work, and then found out after the fact that he couldnt be traded to anaheim.  In the precious few hours before the trade deadline, wasting that time also cost them.  They could have been working on other deals to make their cap work.  Maybe they make a deal that would have helped them make the playoffs in 2022 (when they barely missed).  For these reasaons (as well as those already mentioned) the league had to set this precedent.

 

That said the Chicago thing is wrong.

 

But just because the league made a mistake and didnt punish the hawks enough, that doesnt mean they should let the Sens walk on this.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

7 hours ago, Commandant said:

While everything said about hurting the rights of the player is true.

 

Heres the thing no one is mentioning.  

 

The Sens also hurt Vegas by not disclosing.  They had a player who they thought they could trade anywhere instead of one with a no trade clause.  That asset is not worth as much with an NTC as it is if he didnt have one, so what they got in the Sens trade was a lesser asset than they thought they were getting.  In addition they spent time at the deadline to move him to make their cap work, and then found out after the fact that he couldnt be traded to anaheim.  In the precious few hours before the trade deadline, wasting that time also cost them.  They could have been working on other deals to make their cap work.  Maybe they make a deal that would have helped them make the playoffs in 2022 (when they barely missed).  For these reasaons (as well as those already mentioned) the league had to set this precedent.

 

That said the Chicago thing is wrong.

 

But just because the league made a mistake and didnt punish the hawks enough, that doesnt mean they should let the Sens walk on this.

 

Good post, agree with all your points.