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Carey Price..Hart Trophy?


ICEWATER77
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Take one player off each team. Their most important. Which team plummets most? Montreal probably not in the playoff picture - all due respect to the skaters. They are not well enough coached as a unit to win without Price. Despite an abundance of talent, we scramble nightly in our own zone. Price is, IMHO, *easily* the league MVP. Shouldn't even be close.

Now, better question: imagine how good the Habs could be with a coach that preached a better defensive system? :P

Irrelevant. The only comparable is "Take the #1 goalie off each team. Which team plummets most?"

We are not alone in this boat. We've seen it already last playoffs with Bishop out. illWill's post right above is another good example with the league leaders Preds. Every team with an A class starter and mediocre backup would just be hit as hard. It's not really a coaching problem when save % drops that much.

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I love Carey Price...He's one of the 2 best goalies in the league (with Rinne) The reason why I give the edge to Carey is that he doesn't get any offensive support and he also has to face more shots than Rinne does. At this point in the season, I have to give the edge to Carey. 2 months ago, Rinne was running away with it, that's no longer the case!

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I love Carey Price...He's one of the 2 best goalies in the league (with Rinne) The reason why I give the edge to Carey is that he doesn't get any offensive support and he also has to face more shots than Rinne does. At this point in the season, I have to give the edge to Carey. 2 months ago, Rinne was running away with it, that's no longer the case!

Tim and Sid Show on right now. Topic " Hart trophy leader Carey Price"

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Take one player off each team. Their most important. Which team plummets most? Montreal probably not in the playoff picture - all due respect to the skaters. They are not well enough coached as a unit to win without Price. Despite an abundance of talent, we scramble nightly in our own zone. Price is, IMHO, *easily* the league MVP. Shouldn't even be close.

Now, better question: imagine how good the Habs could be with a coach that preached a better defensive system? :P

I agree with your point (Montreal plummets further than any other team without their star player), but not the specifics ("Montreal is probably not in the playoff picture without Price.")

I think the Habs are on the playoff bubble fighting for a wildcard spot with Dustin Tokarski. Pick any legitimate #1 goalie, and they're still easily in the top three in their division. Montreal is better than we give them credit for.

(Note that right now, they are 2nd, but they've got the second-best winning percentage in the league. I think winning percentage tells a lot more about team strength than points. If you look at the top teams in the overall standings, the percentages are skewed by overtime loser points (irrelevant once the playoffs start) and a differential in games played (which will not exist when the season is over.) Nashville is 35-18 (.660) , Anaheim is 34-20 (.629), Tampa is 34-21 (.618), St. Louis is 34-19 (.642), Montreal is 34-18 (.654), Detroit is 31-21 (.596) New York Islanders are 34-19 (.642). Only Nashville has a better winning percentage than Montreal, but Montreal has a game in hand on them, too.)

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Using the "take a guy out" formula, I really can't see Calgary being even close to a wildcard spot without Giordano. He has been awesome for them. He would he high on my mid season hart trophy list. Dead heat with Price for me.

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I agree with your point (Montreal plummets further than any other team without their star player), but not the specifics ("Montreal is probably not in the playoff picture without Price.")

I think the Habs are on the playoff bubble fighting for a wildcard spot with Dustin Tokarski. Pick any legitimate #1 goalie, and they're still easily in the top three in their division. Montreal is better than we give them credit for.

(Note that right now, they are 2nd, but they've got the second-best winning percentage in the league. I think winning percentage tells a lot more about team strength than points. If you look at the top teams in the overall standings, the percentages are skewed by overtime loser points (irrelevant once the playoffs start) and a differential in games played (which will not exist when the season is over.) Nashville is 35-18 (.660) , Anaheim is 34-20 (.629), Tampa is 34-21 (.618), St. Louis is 34-19 (.642), Montreal is 34-18 (.654), Detroit is 31-21 (.596) New York Islanders are 34-19 (.642). Only Nashville has a better winning percentage than Montreal, but Montreal has a game in hand on them, too.)

I see your point and raise you with:

Have you watched Montreal play? How many times have they been outshot? While they aren't nearly as scrambly in their own zone as they used to be, they still get penned far too often. Look, I enjoy stats as they give a great general idea of what you're looking at. Stats, though, aren't the be-all and end-all. I mean, Montreal's CORSI is below 50% and every team around them in the standings in considerably above. If you want to enjoy a stat, then how about that one? What does it mean? Means someone is saving a lot more pucks than the Habs are shooting...

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yes but habs shots allowed if broken down further are mostly perimeter shots allowed more so then prime chances... most teams game plan vs habs mostly likely go like this. "Carey Price is in net guys, so shoot, shoot and shoot." so teams shoot from everywhere and shoot often.

this actually plays into carey prices hand has he's able to feel the rubber early and often allowing him to settle into the game. most goalies would attest to wanting to see 30+ shots a game to keep them focused.

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yes but habs shots allowed if broken down further are mostly perimeter shots allowed more so then prime chances... most teams game plan vs habs mostly likely go like this. "Carey Price is in net guys, so shoot, shoot and shoot." so teams shoot from everywhere and shoot often.

this actually plays into carey prices hand has he's able to feel the rubber early and often allowing him to settle into the game. most goalies would attest to wanting to see 30+ shots a game to keep them focused.

"Price is in net so shoot shoot shoot" yes and they gets lots of chances to do so. Funny how the teams dont do the same when Rinne is in net? Have ya seen Preds shots a game, or how much time they spend in their own zone without the puck?

Price is the leader of the habs. Without him they cannot get away with playing the way play. The way the habs play practically demands Price to stand on his head to get the win.

Like Renaud Lavoie said on radio "its simple, "if the habs score three goals the game is over, dont matter how they get them, Carey is that consistent"

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I see your point and raise you with:

Have you watched Montreal play? How many times have they been outshot? While they aren't nearly as scrambly in their own zone as they used to be, they still get penned far too often. Look, I enjoy stats as they give a great general idea of what you're looking at. Stats, though, aren't the be-all and end-all. I mean, Montreal's CORSI is below 50% and every team around them in the standings in considerably above. If you want to enjoy a stat, then how about that one? What does it mean? Means someone is saving a lot more pucks than the Habs are shooting...

I've said it before and I'll say it again - while the so-called "advanced stats" like Corsi and Fenwick are occasionally useful, I believe far too much emphasis is placed on them. They count blocked shots as a negative, when blocked shots are a legitimate strategy - it's perfectly acceptable to let the other team tire themselves out attacking ineffectually and then pounce on their tired mistakes, if you can pull it off. This will result in horrible possession numbers, but generate the numbers that count - outscoring your opponents.

I actually believe that having a premier goaltender lends itself to intentionally having lower Corsi and Fenwick numbers, that a team might not have if they had slightly weaker goaltending. If you watch the habs back in the early 90s, you'd see a team that controlled play and imposed its will, yet was regularly outshot. They did this by intentionally giving the opposition a controlled, predictable, clear shot at the net, knowing Patrick Roy was always going to stop that first shot, and then being in place to gobble up the rebound and go back on the attack. If they were keeping Corso and Fenwick back then, they would have been horrible for Montreal, yet nobody could say they weren't controlling play. It was a methodical, disciplined strategy.

The current Habs aren't quite at the same level as those early 90's teams. As you've stated, they occasionally get hemmed in their own zone (though not as often as they do the same to their opponents.) They generally don't have enough offense to recover if things get out of hand. But the thing is, if you really watch them, they are in control of play more often than their possession numbers would indicate. It's partly an attitude on the ice - it's clear that most of the time this team views the opposition's attack as an opportunity to generate their own offense, rather than a major threat which should inspire panic. The fact that they are successful at it? Sure a big part of that is on Carey Price, but he's also the reason that they ice a yielding defense that lets the other team in and then pounces on the rebound for a counter-attack. They aren't being outplayed.

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"Price is in net so shoot shoot shoot" yes and they gets lots of chances to do so. Funny how the teams dont do the same when Rinne is in net? Have ya seen Preds shots a game, or how much time they spend in their own zone without the puck?

There's less than a two shot per game difference between the number of shots allowed by the Habs and by Nashville. (30.4 to 28.7)

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There's less than a two shot per game difference between the number of shots allowed by the Habs and by Nashville. (30.4 to 28.7)

Just goes to show how stupid advanced stats are.

"Well Toronto and Edmonton hired advanced stats guys, look at where they are."-Dale Weise

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I've said it before and I'll say it again - while the so-called "advanced stats" like Corsi and Fenwick are occasionally useful, I believe far too much emphasis is placed on them. They count blocked shots as a negative, when blocked shots are a legitimate strategy - it's perfectly acceptable to let the other team tire themselves out attacking ineffectually and then pounce on their tired mistakes, if you can pull it off. This will result in horrible possession numbers, but generate the numbers that count - outscoring your opponents.

I actually believe that having a premier goaltender lends itself to intentionally having lower Corsi and Fenwick numbers, that a team might not have if they had slightly weaker goaltending. If you watch the habs back in the early 90s, you'd see a team that controlled play and imposed its will, yet was regularly outshot. They did this by intentionally giving the opposition a controlled, predictable, clear shot at the net, knowing Patrick Roy was always going to stop that first shot, and then being in place to gobble up the rebound and go back on the attack. If they were keeping Corso and Fenwick back then, they would have been horrible for Montreal, yet nobody could say they weren't controlling play. It was a methodical, disciplined strategy.

The current Habs aren't quite at the same level as those early 90's teams. As you've stated, they occasionally get hemmed in their own zone (though not as often as they do the same to their opponents.) They generally don't have enough offense to recover if things get out of hand. But the thing is, if you really watch them, they are in control of play more often than their possession numbers would indicate. It's partly an attitude on the ice - it's clear that most of the time this team views the opposition's attack as an opportunity to generate their own offense, rather than a major threat which should inspire panic. The fact that they are successful at it? Sure a big part of that is on Carey Price, but he's also the reason that they ice a yielding defense that lets the other team in and then pounces on the rebound for a counter-attack. They aren't being outplayed.

there is always a smirk when these advanced stats come up. Lots of guys in the business trying to be the "money ball" guy

I remember early nineties when they used to track how much time a player had the puck on his stick. Lasted for about a season.

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Price is the leader of the habs. Without him they cannot get away with playing the way play. The way the habs play practically demands Price to stand on his head to get the win.

I have no idea why people make a point by saying " if we didn't have Price we would be screwed". Well, we DO have Carey Price. He is one of the best players in the league and we are lucky to have him. There is no question that our game plan is centered around the fact that we DO have him. Until we DON'T have him and we are losing games, that argument is invalid.

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I have no idea why people make a point by saying " if we didn't have Price we would be screwed". Well, we DO have Carey Price. He is one of the best players in the league and we are lucky to have him. There is no question that our game plan is centered around the fact that we DO have him. Until we DON'T have him and we are losing games, that argument is invalid.

There's some mental separation people have where the goaltender is not included when talking about the play of the team... as if they were somehow separate things.

You, however, are correct. They are not separate things. The strength of one's goaltender is probably the single most important factor when rating the overall strength and play of your team. A team cannot expect to win without a top tier (or a very hot-at-the-right-time second tier) goaltender, regardless of how good the other players on the team are. The same is not true in the other direction - an otherwise mediocre team can win a cup on the back of a great goaltender.

I'd take Carey Price over any other single player in the league right now.

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I have no idea why people make a point by saying " if we didn't have Price we would be screwed". Well, we DO have Carey Price. He is one of the best players in the league and we are lucky to have him. There is no question that our game plan is centered around the fact that we DO have him. Until we DON'T have him and we are losing games, that argument is invalid.

saying it to exemplify that he is a front running hart trophy candidate.

There's some mental separation people have where the goaltender is not included when talking about the play of the team... as if they were somehow separate things.

You, however, are correct. They are not separate things. The strength of one's goaltender is probably the single most important factor when rating the overall strength and play of your team. A team cannot expect to win without a top tier (or a very hot-at-the-right-time second tier) goaltender, regardless of how good the other players on the team are. The same is not true in the other direction - an otherwise mediocre team can win a cup on the back of a great goaltender.

I'd take Carey Price over any other single player in the league right now.

:thumbs_up: another Price vote for hart trophy...........listen to sports talk shows and price is mentioned more than any player in the league as mvp. :thumbs_up:

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saying it to exemplify that he is a front running hart trophy candidate.

:thumbs_up: another Price vote for hart trophy...........listen to sports talk shows and price is mentioned more than any player in the league as mvp. :thumbs_up:

There are also talk shows and columns that have people suggest that goalies shouldn't even be eligible or that the likes of Tavares, Getzlaf, Rinne, among others are contenders. It's also worth noting that the majority of the people on these talk shows don't have a vote. Price may be a finalist, a contender even. We don't know, nor do the radio hosts, nor do the columnists, nor do the commentators as it's a media-voted award. We don't need to keep a running track of so-and-so on such-and-such show thinks that Price is or isn't a contender. It's irrelevant. We'll find out in four months and change if he got it; we'll know more in two months if he's still as plausible a candidate as he may be now. It's not worth highlighting every time someone agrees with your opinion.

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There are also talk shows and columns that have people suggest that goalies shouldn't even be eligible or that the likes of Tavares, Getzlaf, Rinne, among others are contenders. It's also worth noting that the majority of the people on these talk shows don't have a vote. Price may be a finalist, a contender even. We don't know, nor do the radio hosts, nor do the columnists, nor do the commentators as it's a media-voted award. We don't need to keep a running track of so-and-so on such-and-such show thinks that Price is or isn't a contender. It's irrelevant. We'll find out in four months and change if he got it; we'll know more in two months if he's still as plausible a candidate as he may be now. It's not worth highlighting every time someone agrees with your opinion.

are you serious? "we dont know" "nor do the radio hosts" ............... no kidding. Did somebody say they did? Popular opinion, can i commemt on that without getting schooled? It was said on here less than a month ago that i was the ONLY one picking price as a favorite. In rebuttle :rastapop: (so to speak) i am mentioning that i am in fact NOT the only picking price if the award were handed out today. Far as i can see he is the most popular player in the conversations around the league.

did i misread the title of this thread or something? "Carey Price Hart Trophy?"

"its not worth highlighting every time someone agrees with your opinion".......probably wouldnt if i hadnt been told on here flat out that "nobody agrees with your opinion"

but i get your point. consider it dropped till "the votes" are in.

Thanks

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All I can say is that I'm really happy we have Carey Price. :lol: I was thinking last game how I as a fan am so much more calm when he's in net. I'm fine living without that "cardiac kids" feeling until the playoffs. Tokarski is great and all but it's a different feeling for me when he's in net.

As for the topic. I still think it's very unlikely that he wins the Hart but the more time has been passing by the more he has given people a reason to discuss him as a candidate this year. That's for sure.

I'd take Carey Price over any other single player in the league right now.

Call me crazy, but I think Crosby would have at least as much of a chance of bringing a cup to Montreal as Price does. If not more. I still think Crosby is probably the second best player ever and he knows how to win. He's quietly 4th in league scoring and it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up winning the race. Might not win the Hart "because he has Malkin". There are lot of good reasons that some elite players shouldn't win the Hart I guess.

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I still think Crosby is probably the second best player ever.

If Crosby continues his current PPG pace he'll be fourth all-time in PPG behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Bossy. That requires no offensive drop and this season already hasn't been his usual.

"Best player ever" is tough. Even if we go post-expansion there's Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. I personally argue that the best player in the 90s was Hasek and that for his career he should be considered Top 10 for post-expansion, maybe Top 5. I wouldn't say Crosby was better than Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux or Hasek. That pushes him to number five at best and even then he's contending with Roy, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Messier, Dionne, Bossy, Jagr, etc.

I'd probably go:

1. Gretzky

2. Lemieux

3. Orr

4. Hasek

5. Roy

6. Brodeur

7. Lidstrom

8. Bossy

9. Crosby

10. Jagr

(I don't like Messier.)

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