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What goes around comes around Carolina pay back Kotkaniemi offer sheet


Habsfan89
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1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I don't disagree.  That's why you rarely see an offer sheet.  The management team in Carolina is probably enjoying a few drinks and laughs tonight while MB is having a crappy weekend. 

MB having nervous laughs and drinks to 'calm nerves' ... so kinda same same no? :D

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I would be really unhappy if I were a Carolina fan.  They let a great prospect go in Nedeljkovic (sp?) and they let Hamilton walk so they could use their remaining cap space on a 6 Million dollar KK who won't even play in their top 6? 

 

  Even if we match this was a bad use of their money.  If we don't match it's just criminal and the only reason I can see is that they are still furious about Aho.

 

  I don't think they will be as good this year as they were last year.

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think revenge is a big part of it.  Paying 6.1M for KK really screws the Habs. I don't think anyone else out there was going to pay that much for him.  They let Dougie Hamilton walk so they had the cap space to screw the Habs. I don't see it as a brilliant move by Carolina.  So they screw the Habs by paying 6.1M for KK. If the Habs don't match and KK turns into nothing more than a mediocre player then it won't look very brilliant. 

 

Of course revenge is part of it. I mean, announcing it in French and putting in a $20.00 signing bonus makes that plain as day. But they wouldn't risk making the offer if they weren't willing to risk overpaying for a year before signing him to a lesser bridge deal. There is zero chance they let Hamilton walk in order to do this. Frankly, that notion is preposterous.

 

1 hour ago, Peter Puck said:

 Do you think he is worth 6.1 million now and going forward?  If so we could match and there is no problem.  If he's not then Carolina is going to have to overpay to keep him or else let him walk.

 

 This is a dick move by Carolina and every team is going to see that.  This means there will be no reticence about offer sheeting any of their players, starting with Martin Necas one year from now.  Their players will all know this.  If you were Martin Necas would you sign next year for anything less than an over payment?

 

Of course not, but there is no doubt they will make a move to free up the space to match. If he doesn't have a breakout season, then they aren't on the hook long term and can trade him. If he does breakout, then they'd be giving him a big contract anyway.

 

It is no more of a dick move than Bergevin offering Aho a huge signing bonus trying to take advantage of the Hurricanes owner after he lost a quarter billion dollars trying to save a failing football league.

 

Most in hockey circles see EVERY offer sheet as a dick move.  All the talk about being against some kind of GM-code. Yet nobody retaliated against Philly when they offered Kesler or Weber. Nobody went after Edmonton after they offered Vanek and signed Penner. Nobody went after San Jose for Hjarlmarsson or Calgary for O'Rielly. The only other time there was a vengeance offer was when St. Louis offered Bernier after they matched Vancouver's offer on Backes. Offer sheets end up just being business. There has never been open season on a team to get back at them for giving out an offer sheet.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

I would be really unhappy if I were a Carolina fan.  They let a great prospect go in Nedeljkovic (sp?) and they let Hamilton walk so they could use their remaining cap space on a 6 Million dollar KK who won't even play in their top 6? 

 

  Even if we match this was a bad use of their money.  If we don't match it's just criminal and the only reason I can see is that they are still furious about Aho.

 

  I don't think they will be as good this year as they were last year.

They are loaded on D. Our D can’t match them in terms of talent even without Hamilton. They also have more elite players. What is strange is the goaltending choices. I hope their moves in goaltending bites them in the ass, but I like their forwards and Defence. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Of course revenge is part of it. I mean, announcing it in French and putting in a $20.00 signing bonus makes that plain as day. But they wouldn't risk making the offer if they weren't willing to risk overpaying for a year before signing him to a lesser bridge deal. There is zero chance they let Hamilton walk in order to so this.

 

 

Of course not, but there is no doubt they will make a move to free up the space to match. If he doesn't have a breakout season, then they aren't on the hook long term and can trade him. If he does breakout, then they'd be giving him a big contract anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

   If he doesn't have a breakout season he won't be tradeable for anything of value.  Which team will be looking for a 35 point forward entitled to a 6 million dollar qualifying offer?

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1 hour ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Of course revenge is part of it. I mean, announcing it in French and putting in a $20.00 signing bonus makes that plain as day. But they wouldn't risk making the offer if they weren't willing to risk overpaying for a year before signing him to a lesser bridge deal. There is zero chance they let Hamilton walk in order to so this.

 

 

Of course not, but there is no doubt they will make a move to free up the space to match. If he doesn't have a breakout season, then they aren't on the hook long term and can trade him. If he does breakout, then they'd be giving him a big contract anyway.

 

It is no more of a dick move than Bergevin offering Aho a huge signing bonus trying to take advantage of the Hurricanes owner after he lost a quarter billion dollars in the AAF. Most in hockey circles see EVERY offer sheet as a dick move. That's why we've only seen 10 in the last 20+ years. And yet we almost never seen teams target other team that make offers. Nobody went after Philly when they offered Kesler or Weber. Nobody went after Edmonton after they offered Vanek and Penner. Nobody went after San Jose for Hjarlmarsson or Calgary for O'Rielly. The only other time there was a vengeance offer was when St. Louis offered Bernier after they marched Vancouver's offer on Backes. 

 

 

 

MB’s offer sheet was a dumb move, not because he made one, but it was so pathetic, that there was no way it wasn’t going to be matched. He just helped speed up the resigning of Aho at. Pretty decent cap hit

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33 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

I would be really unhappy if I were a Carolina fan.  They let a great prospect go in Nedeljkovic (sp?) and they let Hamilton walk so they could use their remaining cap space on a 6 Million dollar KK who won't even play in their top 6? 

 

  Even if we match this was a bad use of their money.  If we don't match it's just criminal and the only reason I can see is that they are still furious about Aho.

 

  I don't think they will be as good this year as they were last year.

They don't want Kotkaniemi, this is just pay back for the aho sheet. That's why it's only a 1 year offer and a $20.00 signing bonus is laughable. It's a F/U to Bergevin. 

 

Now if Bergevin match's it then we get screwed with Suzuki too. We're going to have to pay Suzuki over 7mil. Kotkaniemi at 6.1m and Suzuki at 7mil or over. That's double what these guys are worth all because this offer sheet. 

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22 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

They don't want Kotkaniemi, this is just pay back for the aho sheet. That's why it's only a 1 year offer and a $20.00 signing bonus is laughable. It's a F/U to Bergevin. 

 

Now if Bergevin match's it then we get screwed with Suzuki too. We're going to have to pay Suzuki over 7mil.

 

It's only a 1 year offer because that is all they had to offer in order to put pressure on Montreal to match. With a one year deal, a signing bonus doesn't impact the deal in any significant way, so they were free to make it an amusing middle finger. It does not give any indication that it is not a serious offer. They want JK. They are not stupid enough to risk losing draft picks for a player they don't actually want.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, ehjay said:

I think MB should let KK walk but...

 

If the argument to keep him is on the pay alone being the problem:

I can see this solution... they could figure out an extension an bring over all $ amount down starting next year (2022), i would guesstimate a 5.5 over 8yrs and it might require a trade like Byron (even tho I like TiPaul, Man Play like a Lion!!) this would keep the vets tht left dough on the table happy ish and maybe allow Habs in back in low ball salary discussion again with Suzuki.

 

Then again I feel Suzi gonna Bi***h slap this year the league and Habs gonna need McJebus money to keep him :) 

 

I believe that they can only match the offer sheet or let him go ... any extension could only be done in January ... who knows what would happen then.

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17 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

They don't want Kotkaniemi, this is just pay back for the aho sheet. That's why it's only a 1 year offer and a $20.00 signing bonus is laughable. It's a F/U to Bergevin. 

 

Now if Bergevin match's it then we get screwed with Suzuki too. We're going to have to pay Suzuki over 7mil.

Yes I agree.  The OS is almost certainly a big loss for the Habs.  But if we don't match this really hurts Carolina.   Whichever team ends up with KK will have screwed up their salary structure.  The Hurricanes have to sign Niederreitter, Trocheck and Necas next year.   All 3 could easily end up with better stats than KK.  What will Carolina do then?

 

  If we do match we will have the same problem.   

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32 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

MB’s offer sheet was a icky move, not because he made one, but it was so pathetic, that there was no way it wasn’t going to be matched. He just helped speed up the resigning of Aho at. Pretty decent cap hit

 

Bergevin tried to take advantage of an owner who had just lost a quarter of his net worth a few months prior and ensured they wouldn't be able to buy into any UFA years. It was every bit as "icky" as this offer.

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1 hour ago, ehjay said:

I can see this solution... they could figure out an extension an bring over all $ amount down starting next year (2022), i would guesstimate a 5.5 over 8yrs and it might require a trade like Byron (even tho I like TiPaul, Man Play like a Lion!!) this would keep the vets tht left dough on the table happy ish and maybe allow Habs in back in low ball salary discussion again with Suzuki.

 

I'll play devils advocate here.  Why does Kotkaniemi agree to 8 x $5.5M when he can just take $6.1 per year as a qualifying offer for three years (more if he had a good season and went to arbitration) and walk to free agency?  The idea of signing him for cheaper sounds nice in principle but in reality, it's a tough sell for the player knowing that qualifying offer is what it's going to be.

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15 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

Yes I agree.  The OS is almost certainly a big loss for the Habs.  But if we don't match this really hurts Carolina.   Whichever team ends up with KK will have screwed up their salary structure.  The Hurricanes have to sign Niederreitter, Trocheck and Necas next year.   All 3 could easily end up with better stats than KK.  What will Carolina do then?

 

  If we do match we will have the same problem.   

 

For my part, I don’t really get this idea that it “upsets the salary structure.” (I’m not denying that this is the perception, just questioning whether the perception makes sense). 

 

Some other GM swoops in and makes a vastly inflated offer for an RFA. Under pressure, you match. But everyone knows that the only reason for this is that you were forced into it by a predatory rival, and that only under those very specific conditions does the player become “worth” the inflated cost. Yet somehow that inflation is then considered to apply to every player on your roster. “Hey, KK only had 25 points and he’s worth $6 mil…I had 26 points, so I’m worth more!!” 

 

If an agent tries play the ingenue and says “well what about KK,” you just reply that the only reason KK makes that money is the ridiculous offer sheet - it is a complete outlier on the team and all around the league. And you move along.

 

Weber got a completely bonkers contract after Philly offer-shat him. But I didn’t then see a wave of D-men getting paid huge dollars until age 42. Because everyone could see that was nuts. Same logic should apply, surely.

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38 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

Yes I agree.  The OS is almost certainly a big loss for the Habs.  But if we don't match this really hurts Carolina.   Whichever team ends up with KK will have screwed up their salary structure.  The Hurricanes have to sign Niederreitter, Trocheck and Necas next year.   All 3 could easily end up with better stats than KK.  What will Carolina do then?

 

  If we do match we will have the same problem.   

How does it screw them up - they just signed one of their most important pieces to a pretty good contract.

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31 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Bergevin tried to take advantage of an owner who had just lost a quarter of his net worth a few months prior and ensured they wouldn't be able to buy into any UFA years. It was every bit as "icky" as this offer.

The icky was the iPhone autocorrect trying to interpret typos - 

was meant to be “pointless”

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36 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

I'll play devils advocate here.  Why does Kotkaniemi agree to 8 x $5.5M when he can just take $6.1 per year as a qualifying offer for three years (more if he had a good season and went to arbitration) and walk to free agency?  The idea of signing him for cheaper sounds nice in principle but in reality, it's a tough sell for the player knowing that qualifying offer is what it's going to be.

 

It does happen, but most pro athletes are not willing to bet on themselves by taking a series of 1 year deals when a long term contract is on the table, at least when it is not a lowball offer. Especially not in sports as physical as hockey.  More often than not, players who do bet on themselves end up losing millions.

 

9 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The icky was the iPhone autocorrect trying to interpret typos - 

was meant to be “pointless”

 

:lol:

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

For my part, I don’t really get this idea that it “upsets the salary structure.” (I’m not denying that this is the perception, just questioning whether the perception makes sense). 

 

Some other GM swoops in and makes a vastly inflated offer for an RFA. Under pressure, you match. But everyone knows that the only reason for this is that you were forced into it by a predatory rival, and that only under those very specific conditions does the player become “worth” the inflated cost. Yet somehow that inflation is then considered to apply to every player on your roster. “Hey, KK only had 25 points and he’s worth $6 mil…I had 26 points, so I’m worth more!!” 

 

If an agent tries play the ingenue and says “well what about KK,” you just reply that the only reason KK makes that money is the ridiculous offer sheet - it is a complete outlier on the team and all around the league. And you move along.

 

Weber got a completely bonkers contract after Philly offer-shat him. But I didn’t then see a wave of D-men getting paid huge dollars until age 42. Because everyone could see that was nuts. Same logic should apply, surely.

 

Agree. This doesn't mean every other player on the Habs is worth more because of a stupid offer sheet, KK got lucky. 

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Well there’s only one choice here, Take the 1s,3rd and a 6mil cap savings for KK ( not a bad deal for us I’m thinking).  There’s a possibility KK matches his poor performance from last years season and Carolina will be screwed for a long time. Good on them for this! 

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6 hours ago, Peter Puck said:

We  don't have to match.  If KK turns into a star this year and we don't match then yes Carolina made a good move.  But if we let him go, no matter how well he plays they will have to offer him 5+ million next year or lose him for nothing after giving up a 1st and 3rd.   No one thinks he is worth that salary now.   I don't think he will be worth 5+ million a year from now. 

 

  I agree this screws us over but that doesn't really help the Hurricanes.    They are going to overpay for KK and the only reason I can see is that they want to get revenge.    From my point of view exacting revenge is not a good way to make decisions.

You don’t think that he has more potential than Drouin, who btw is getting $5m+ And was basically handed that contract fir being a francophone.

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2 hours ago, habs#4,9,10,33 said:

Well there’s only one choice here, Take the 1s,3rd and a 6mil cap savings for KK ( not a bad deal for us I’m thinking).  There’s a possibility KK matches his poor performance from last years season and Carolina will be screwed for a long time. Good on them for this! 

A first that is most likely going to be in the bottom 8 to 10 picks and a 3rd rounder is a horrible return. I’d rather match snd gamble that KK becomes a 2nd line centre. We went for I’m having a centre problem, where our old #1 centre was worried about his ice time, to having an unproven #1, potentially no #2, an unproven #3, but do have some very good options to be the mediocre #4 centre. May as well sell other players like Gallagher, Petry, Chiarot and if price comes back strong, convince him to waive his a NMC for a trade to a team he can win with. Right now we are better than Buffalo, but may get leap frogged by Ottawa in the Atlantic. We are looking  more and more like that Oilers team that went to to the finals and than missed the playoffs, than a legit contender that learns from their trip to the finals to come back stronger.

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I’m in the minority but although there may have to be a reorganization in the structure of our salary, I think you match.

 

We’ll see how things play out but I believe we will. 

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Not sure there is much to think about. KK is not worth $2m a year but good for him. He’s wise for signing. 
 

Carolina is the fool. That type of thing is bound to generate issues in their locker room because he’s a 3rd liner at best.
 

Who says the 1st rounder is a lower pick? The Canes may not make the playoffs either. NHL is a crapshoot every year where very spots are gtd. The Metro is going to be a tough division, too. Maybe the leagues best with the Pa and NY teams, Wash, NJ, Cbus, and Carolina. 

 

Habs need to take the picks and move on. Maybe even re-engage in the Eichel sweepstakes and package the picks with a few prospects. 

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7 hours ago, habs#4,9,10,33 said:

Well there’s only one choice here, Take the 1s,3rd and a 6mil cap savings for KK ( not a bad deal for us I’m thinking).  There’s a possibility KK matches his poor performance from last years season and Carolina will be screwed for a long time. Good on them for this! 

 

Nobody is getting screwed if he has a bad season. He has a bad season, you don't tender him and you've lost a 1st and a 3rd. Not ideal, but hardly crippling. Is every team that gives up a 1st at the trade deadline screwed for a long time? He has a great season, he's getting a huge extension anyway. He has a mediocre season and he still probably gets a solid bridge deal rather than risking a series of 1 year deals.  

 

 

6 minutes ago, Longstreet said:

Not sure there is much to think about. KK is not worth $2m a year but good for him. He’s wise for signing. 
 

Carolina is the fool. That type of thing is bound to generate issues in their locker room because he’s a 3rd liner at best.
 

Who says the 1st rounder is a lower pick? The Canes may not make the playoffs either. NHL is a crapshoot every year where very spots are gtd. The Metro is going to be a tough division, too. Maybe the leagues best with the Pa and NY teams, Wash, NJ, Cbus, and Carolina. 

 

Habs need to take the picks and move on. Maybe even re-engage in the Eichel sweepstakes and package the picks with a few prospects. 

 

The part about the Canes not being a lock for a late 1st is the one thing I agree with. They lost their best D, a really good young D, and replaced them with Tony D'Angelo. There is your source of locker room issues. They also took a huge step back in goal. Not extending Nedeljkovic in favor of signing Fredrick Andersson for more money is perhaps the most baffling move of the off-season.

 

But Montreal is screwed if they do not match. They don't have the center depth to absorb the loss of Kotkianiemi.  NHL players know that offer sheet deals are player friendly; that's not going to cause any issues in the room.

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