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Habs acquire Christian Dvorak


dlbalr
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2 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

I honestly dont get why anybody was nervous regarding the younger Tkachuk. 

 

If anybody is bored try doing what I did:

 

Google NHL brothers, there are at least 3-4 sites with great lists.  Then go through the lists and open up the older brothers player profile page.  1st look at what draft position the elder brother had, then check the younger brothers.  If their draft positions were within 5 spots of each other, then check to see if the older brother went directly from Junior into the NHL, if yes how was their rookie year?  Then check if the younger brother went directly into NHL and look at their rookie year - and it will be on par with the older brothers. 

 

Under that exact criteria, there are lots of examples where more often than not, the younger brother is actually the better player. 

 

Great ex: Sylvain, drafted high and went directly into NHL had a really good rookie year, it was no fluke that Pierre was drafted high and went directly into NHL too and had a really good rookie year, and the younger brother turned out to to be the better Turgeon.    

Check it out, its wild, and there are lots of other examples of that.  Under that identical scenario drafting the younger brother is 1 of the safest picks you can possibly have.

 

The last time the Habs tried that in the first round, it didn't exactly go very well...

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6 hours ago, PMAC said:

You seem oblivious to the point that Montreal had plenty of cap room to sign Kk to the bridge that they wanted and could have matched the Canes ridiculous offer and rightly chose not to do so. What are you talking about” mind-boggling terms” that Bergevin agreed to? The whichever of the two picks Arizona gets is top ten protected. The Coyotes get the best pick unless either of them is in the top ten then they get the lower pick. That is a tidy bit of business. Perhaps you think a first and a second an outrageous price? Then you shouldn’t like the Canes giving up a first without protection and a 3rd plus an extra 1.5million for a player who scored 5 goals last season. You really need to give the Bergevin bashing a rest. 

Giving the coyotes the better of the 1st rounders is dumb and an overpayment. Ours will certainly be worse. Giving up a second rounder in 2024, also limits our ability to sign RFA’s in the future as well. We gave up more for Dvorak than what we got fit KK.


So I should praise Bergevin for the idiotic 1st pick this year? For failing to improve our D?? For losing a guy he had been selling as the future of franchise for a late 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder? I suppose I should also stop criticizing the idiotic Sergechev trade, the idiotic handling of Mete and KK as 18 year olds,  the first the Alzner signing over Markov, for not offering two years to Perry?  

 

hen he signed a Taffoli, I said I liked the pick. When we drafted Caufield, I said I liked the pick. I said the Anderson move turned out much better than I thought it would, but he is making a lot of money, for potentially being a 3rd liner next year.  
 

he has handed out stupid terms and $ to veteran marginal players (Byron as an example), and played hardball with kids - when the league is going in the opposite directions. It’s dumb declining teams like San Jose that continuously have handed out them and dollars to declining veterans. 
 

I see a clear YzerPlan.  There is no clear coherent BergePlan.

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3 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I honestly dont get why anybody was nervous regarding the younger Tkachuk. 

 

If anybody is bored try doing what I did:

 

Google NHL brothers, there are at least 3-4 sites with great lists.  Then go through the lists and open up the older brothers player profile page.  1st look at what draft position the elder brother had, then check the younger brothers.  If their draft positions were within 5 spots of each other, then check to see if the older brother went directly from Junior into the NHL, if yes how was their rookie year?  Then check if the younger brother went directly into NHL and look at their rookie year - and it will be on par with the older brothers. 

 

Under that exact criteria, there are lots of examples where more often than not, the younger brother is actually the better player. 

 

Great ex: Sylvain, drafted high and went directly into NHL had a really good rookie year, it was no fluke that Pierre was drafted high and went directly into NHL too and had a really good rookie year, and the younger brother turned out to to be the better Turgeon.    

Check it out, its wild, and there are lots of other examples of that.  Under that identical scenario drafting the younger brother is 1 of the safest picks you can possibly have.

 

Check out the career stats of another of our stellar picks - . marcel hossa.

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15 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Giving the coyotes the better of the 1st rounders is dumb and an overpayment. Ours will certainly be worse. Giving up a second rounder in 2024, also limits our ability to sign RFA’s in the future as well. We gave up more for Dvorak than what we got fit KK.

 

Unless Montreal's pick falls inside the top ten in which case Arizona gets Carolina's pick.  That's an important element you keep overlooking (or at least not acknowledging).  I'm also not worried about limiting offer sheeting options in 2024.  I'd be very surprised if they were planning to tender another offer sheet anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Giving the coyotes the better of the 1st rounders is dumb and an overpayment. You are entitled to your opinion. I think under the circumstances that the price for Dvorak was reasonable. It was not a dumb trade. Not addressing the gaping hole in the middle of the line-up would have been dumb. 

Ours will certainly be worse. I don't think our pick will necessarily be worse, the Canes potentially have issues in net, on D and in the room. 

Giving up a second rounder in 2024, also limits our ability to sign RFA’s in the future as well. We gave up more for Dvorak than what we got fit KK.

 

Are you seriously criticizing the trade because trading a 2024 second round pick will preclude an offer sheet at that time?????!!!  Dvorak is the better player right now and several other teams were interested.


So I should praise Bergevin for the idiotic 1st pick this year?  NO.  For failing to improve our D?? NO

For losing a guy he had been selling as the future of franchise for a late 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder? NO, except for Dundon's need for revenge I very much doubt that KK would be anywhere but Montreal.  I suppose I should also stop criticizing the idiotic Sergechev trade, NO the idiotic handling of Mete and KK as 18 year olds,  the first the Alzner signing over Markov, for not offering two years to Perry?  The historical criticism is getting old and how do you know that Perry wasn't offered two years? Also, you are really going to criticize him for letting Perry go and signing Pacquette? 

 

he has handed out stupid terms and $ to veteran marginal players (Byron as an example) Do you have another example, because I can't think of one, and played hardball with kids - when the league is going in the opposite directions. ... That is simply not true there are several significant RFA's that are not signed including Brady T. in Ottawa as most clubs are fighting hard to keep their RFA's cost controlled. It’s dumb declining teams like San Jose that continuously have handed out them and dollars to declining veterans.  My point is, you can't reasonably attack Bergevin for giving contracts to veterans and then criticize him for replacing Perry with a younger player. 

 

Look, this whole debate might make me seem like a Bergevin apologist but I really wanted him fired in 2017. If they had lost to the Leafs, I would have wanted him and everyone else fired. The organization really needs to stop rushing prospects to the NHL, most of the time it simply doesn't work. However, for all the mistakes Bergevin built a team that competed for the Cup. He deserves credit for that, and to attack him for refusing to let the Canes revenge wreak havoc on the team for years is misguided. He made the right decision to cut the cord with KK and he got a decent, cost controlled second line centre for a reasonable price.   

In any case, I am sure that we will both agree to disagree and I am finished with this debate.  
 

I see a clear YzerPlan.  There is no clear coherent BergePlan.

 

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2 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

Unless Montreal's pick falls inside the top ten in which case Arizona gets Carolina's pick.  That's an important element you keep overlooking (or at least not acknowledging).  I'm also not worried about limiting offer sheeting options in 2024.  I'd be very surprised if they were planning to tender another offer sheet anytime soon.

 

The fact that the pick is top 10 protected is the one element of the deal that makes it somewhat acceptable to me. The salary cap has created a certain amount of balance in the league and it wouldn't take much bad luck for a team to fall into the bottom quarter.  I wish Carolina had never tendered the offer sheet but they did.  MB did a reasonable job mitigating the damage however Montreal management created this mess by keeping KK up when he should have been back home playing. 

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4 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

Unless Montreal's pick falls inside the top ten in which case Arizona gets Carolina's pick.  That's an important element you keep overlooking (or at least not acknowledging).  I'm also not worried about limiting offer sheeting options in 2024.  I'd be very surprised if they were planning to tender another offer sheet anytime soon.

In a deep draft, why would you want to give up your 11th or 12th pick, versus a 20, or 22?  Arizona is looking to shed salaries and get more draft picks. Why is our pick, even part of the discussion?? There was no need to rush the trade with Arizona, other than to save face - which is the same reason that KK was rushed into the lineup and got us into this mess.

 

I get that Arizona may have said we was not the higher puck, but Dvorak has reportedly been on th block all summer, and no one paid a higher price. Are we bidding against ourselves here???

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2 hours ago, PMAC said:

 

There are lot of examples , of us overpaying for close to washed out veterans, or 3rd/4th liners too much, either by signing our own, UFA’s, or in trades - just from the top of my head - Briere, Prust, Shaw, Alzner, hemsky.

 

 I’m criticizing trading our own 1st pick because it will be 8 to 12 spots higher than the Canes, AND including another 2nd.  Dvorak has been on turn block all summer while the Coyotes try and cut salary. No one else offered that much. What was our rush?? Maybe it’s because I don’t see us as a playoff team, ITV ot without KK, or Dvorak, that I don’t like the idea of giving up a puck.  Sign another depth centre chap. May as well suck and improve our chances of getting an extra lite player. The next two drafts both have high end talent. The RFA limitations are just another factor. We are in cap hell with a bubble team, and paying too much for old men, in a young man’s game.
 

i agree that the canes are weak on D, but I think their D is still good. What issues do they have in their dressing room?? Seems like a tight group. Yeah, they added D’Angelo - who MB also tried to acquire, but what other issues do they have. They have a lot more top end talent ha us. Better forwards. Better D. Better coaching and development. We have the edge in goal. But that all depends on what regular season Prixe looks like.

I look at the Oilers went to the cup finals and than sucked for over a decade. SJ went to the cup snd they are too old, too slow. Sens went deep than fell badly. We were in a unique situation last year for our division and conference, and I you look at my posts at the start of last year, I said this is going to be our best chance at the Semis because of the divisional format. The Atlantic division and Eastern conference are very strong - and we are a lot weaker. Savard for Weber is a huge hole for a D that already was weak offensively. 

 

I doubt if we make the playoffs. Dvorak is not the difference maker to get us in.

 

as fir Perry, he specifically said, he took Tampa, because they were the ones offering two years. We saw this movie already with Markov.

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6 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

In a deep draft, why would you want to give up your 11th or 12th pick, versus a 20, or 22?  Arizona is looking to shed salaries and get more draft picks. Why is our pick, even part of the discussion?? There was no need to rush the trade with Arizona, other than to save face - which is the same reason that KK was rushed into the lineup and got us into this mess.

 

I get that Arizona may have said we was not the higher puck, but Dvorak has reportedly been on th block all summer, and no one paid a higher price. Are we bidding against ourselves here???

 

Multiple teams offered a first plus something else at the draft so Arizona was in the driver's seat to wait for an even better offer to come in.  They absolutely were not bidding against themselves.

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13 hours ago, dlbalr said:

...  I'd be very surprised if they were planning to tender another offer sheet anytime soon.

 

Well .... Martin Necas and Ethan Bear are both RFAs NEXT summer ... depending what happens to the Habs first rounder either one might be tempting ... given the other players 'Canes have to re-sign (UFAs: Niederreiter, Trochek ... RFAs: Kotkaniemi, Deangelo) the Habs might even be able to get away with a $4.1M (2nd round pick) offer

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Geez, after watching these highlights I'm almost wondering if he might even be the puck moving d-man the Habs need?  Sure, he doesn't play defence but he seems decent at moving the puck up the ice. 

 

 

I loved the assist at 1:27. 

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12 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

The danger of watching highlights! 😄

There can be great danger in extrapolating highlights too far ... How did THIS GUY not score 30 every season (LOL)

 

That said, his defensive awareness/positioning and puck handling skills may be able to support getting the puck out of the zone more than most other Habs forwards.

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8 hours ago, DON said:

 

He went 4-4 in SO last year.  Thats why I've been saying that he's a SO specialist, and he's got numerous OT goals too.  He does seems to be an absolutely perfect fit, because surprisingly; it seems like he'll help all special teams.  i.e. PP, PP, OT, SO, faceoffs, and even have a puck moving dman effect.  He should be linked with Edmundson.

 

On 9/14/2021 at 10:24 AM, tomh009 said:

The danger of watching highlights! 😄

 

That is a valid point, but he is definitely under rated, and after 1 season with the Habs he'll be rated more properly.  i.e. he'll have way better linemates with the Habs than with the Yotes, so it shouldnt be a surprise to see him hit new career highs. 

 

On 9/14/2021 at 10:49 AM, GHT120 said:

There can be great danger in extrapolating highlights too far ... How did THIS GUY not score 30 every season (LOL)

 

That said, his defensive awareness/positioning and puck handling skills may be able to support getting the puck out of the zone more than most other Habs forwards. 

 

It's not just defensive awareness either - watch his goal highlights.  He basically does the same thing in the offensive zone too.  i.e. he seems to be highly adept at being a good "wingman"; where he knows to position himself for puck support purposes.  ex: wherever 1 of his linemates has the puck he's often 10-15 feet off to side of them and in the middle of the ice and wide open, so if his linemate gets into any trouble he is an easy pass option for them.

 

Honestly, his scoring seems too low, but that should increase.  Over an 82 game season he's average 22-23g over the last 2 seasons.  Last year he got 17, but but he had 5 multi goal games.  How many players that get under 25 goals and get over half of their goals in multi goal games?  That seems highly unusual to me, I would think players with that many multi goal games could get close to 30. 

 

Also, his 1 shot totally reminds me Anderson's.  i.e. the puck comes near their stick, and they just rip into a dangerous wrist shot.  He has an almost identical 1 timer wrist shot that Anderson has, and Josh gets close to 30 g/yr.  Another similarity to Anderson is how he gets off decent hard shots in tight to the crease.  Toffoli is also good at that too.

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I was doing a dive into Christan Dvorak and I'm curious if I should be concerned. Looking at Corey Sznajder's 5 on 5 offense advance stats... Dvorak was the worst forward on Arizona in terms of creating shots on the forecheck or on the rush. He was also the worst on the team in terms of shots per and primary assist pass per 60.

 

In terms of league wide his numbers in these areas are awful but a lot of that is due to Arizona being terrible... however being worst on his team doesn't look good. Are there explanations for these stats?

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45 minutes ago, Plutarch said:

I was doing a dive into Christan Dvorak and I'm curious if I should be concerned. Looking at Corey Sznajder's 5 on 5 offense advance stats... Dvorak was the worst forward on Arizona in terms of creating shots on the forecheck or on the rush. He was also the worst on the team in terms of shots per and primary assist pass per 60.

 

In terms of league wide his numbers in these areas are awful but a lot of that is due to Arizona being terrible... however being worst on his team doesn't look good. Are there explanations for these stats?

For one he was burdened with taking the majority of defense zone starts, and well as facing the toughest competition. So while he played a lot of minutes, many of them were spent defending due to his role. 
 

were he placed in an offensive role, you’d certainly see an improvement on those numbers. I’m sure quality of wingers also goes a long way as you mentioned, and Dvorak will have a bevy of strong wingers to play with this year.

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6 hours ago, Plutarch said:

I was doing a dive into Christan Dvorak and I'm curious if I should be concerned. Looking at Corey Sznajder's 5 on 5 offense advance stats... Dvorak was the worst forward on Arizona in terms of creating shots on the forecheck or on the rush. He was also the worst on the team in terms of shots per and primary assist pass per 60.

 

In terms of league wide his numbers in these areas are awful but a lot of that is due to Arizona being terrible... however being worst on his team doesn't look good. Are there explanations for these stats?

 

 

I dont think thats a big concern.

 

I agree with what @Meller93 said.

 

Plus, I heard that he has been criticized for not shooting enough, but 2 yrs ago he did play with Hall for half a season.    I think part of that was due to Hall being a "star" player with a much better shot than Dvorak.  ex:  if playing with a sniper like OV, you might think to give him the puck vs shoot yourself type scenario.   However, for some reason, Dvorak and Hall didn't really gel.  Dvorak had decent #'s with Hall, but he should have done better. 

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  • 7 months later...

Dvorak had 17 points in 22 games under MSL.

 

While I dont expect him to do that pace over a full season (its a 64 point pace)... he could score 50 points and be an effective 2nd liner.

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