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2021-22 NHL Discussion Thread


tomh009

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13 minutes ago, Neech said:

Juolevi makes KK look like a solid top-5 pick.  

 

Yeah, if he had worked out and he’d become the Dan Hamhuis type he was supposed to be, who knows, Dim Jim Benning might still be employed.

 

I remember when Van picked him…it seemed an uninspiring choice. But he’s had injuries. It’s too bad.

 

It also goes to show, as do KK and Galchenyuk, that even picking in the top-5 is far from a guarantee.

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8 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

that even picking in the top-5 is far from a guarantee.

Some of us older folks noticed that awhile ago.:(

 

1 Montreal Doug Wickenheiser C Regina Pats [WHL] 556 111 165 276 286 1989-90
1 2 Winnipeg Dave Babych D Portland Winter Hawks [WHL] 1195 142 581 723 970 1998-99
1 3 Chicago Denis Savard F Montreal Juniors [QMJHL] 1196 473 865 1338 1336 1996-97
1 4 Los Angeles Larry Murphy D Peterborough Petes [OHA] 1615 287 929 1216 1084 2000-01
1 5 Washington Darren Veitch D Regina Pats [WHL] 511 48 209 257 296 1990-91
1 6 Edmonton Paul Coffey D Kitchener Rangers [OHA] 1409 396 1135 1531 1800 2000-01

 

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17 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Picking #1 is not a guarantee.  It just improves your chances. 

 

My running argument against the “tank every season unless you’re a powerhouse” crowd is precisely that they tend to think it is a guarantee. 

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17 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

My running argument against the “tank every season unless you’re a powerhouse” crowd is precisely that they tend to think it is a guarantee. 

 

For me there is a big difference between "tank" and "rebuild".  Tank suggests trying to lose which I am not a fan of because the wrong culture/mindset can takeover. 

 

Rebuild suggests recognizing that the current configuration is not going to win a cup in the near future and trading some veterans while they still have some market value for picks/prospects who you hope will turn into something special (ie. Suzuki). A little short term pain for long term gain. I think we are in rebuild mode or need to be and Gorton/Hughes recognize that. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

For me there is a big difference between "tank" and "rebuild".  Tank suggests trying to lose which I am not a fan of because the wrong culture/mindset can takeover. 

 

Rebuild suggests recognizing that the current configuration is not going to win a cup in the near future and trading some veterans while they still have some market value for picks/prospects who you hope will turn into something special (ie. Suzuki). A little short term pain for long term gain. I think we are in rebuild mode or need to be and Gorton/Hughes recognize that. 

 

 

A "tank" to me never involves the players on the team trying to lose; that is called a "player rebellion against the coach." Rather a tank involves precisely what you are describing, i.e., shipping out veterans for picks and prospects on a large scale in a short span of time.

 

And I agree with rebuilding when the core is a disaster and the organization lacks a critical mass of young talent -  as is the case in Montreal right now.

 

But the Habs, like most teams that have not ascended to heavy-duty "contending" status over a period of time, have a number of fans who argue for a tank-job every year. These tankologists (or tanquistes, as I prefer, being from Quebec) think as follows:

 

(1) anything short of a "genuine contender" should automatically be a candidate for a tank job. 

(2) tanking, in their mind, means you suck the big one for 1-2 years and then you are guaranteed to come out with Connor McDavid, Aston Matthews, and Cale Makar, and go on to be a dominating team for the next decade.

 

 Neither premise is correct.

 

I therefore see tanking as an extreme team-building measure to be undertaken only in very specific circumstances - like now.  

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39 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

My running argument against the “tank every season unless you’re a powerhouse” crowd is precisely that they tend to think it is a guarantee. 

 

I think very few if any think it is a guarantee ... after decades of mostly "anything can happen" they are just overly anxious to chase elite talent ... MY issue with some "tanquistes" is that there is no sense in tanking just to get the chance at the/a top pick ... Galchenyuk and KK are perfect examples ... this season is not IMO a tank (by my definition that is pre-planned) ... it is just a terrible season ... not certain there are any "franchise/generational" players in the 2022 draft to make this pain truly worthwhile ... but there seem to be in 2023 ... which is why I don't want this to be a quick re-tool ... there needs to be structured rebuild rather than a Hoffman/Dvorak/Savard/etc. patch job ... and I don't think you necessarily disagree.

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1 minute ago, GHT120 said:

 

I think very few if any think it is a guarantee ... after decades of mostly "anything can happen" they are just overly anxious to chase elite talent ... MY issue with some "tankists" is that there is no sense in tanking just to get the chance at the/a top pick ... Galchenyuk and KK are perfect examples ... this season is not IMO a tank (by my definition that is pre-planned) ... it is just a terrible season ... not certain there are any "franchise/generational" players in the 2022 draft to make this pain truly worthwhile ... but there seem to be in 2023 ... which is why I don't want this to be a quick re-tool ... there needs to be structured rebuild rather than a Hoffman/Dvorak/Savard/etc. patch job ... and I don't think you necessarily disagree.

 

Nope, don't disagree. 

 

What I would disagree with is taking a team that is a playoff/bubble team and consciously and calculatedly blowing it up because scouts think there is a generational talent in the draft that year. 

 

Even a great draft year has what, maybe 1-2 such talents. So you are blowing up your organization in order to participate in a lottery. 

 

No thanks.

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23 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

A "tank" to me never involves the players on the team trying to lose; that is called a "player rebellion against the coach." Rather a tank involves precisely what you are describing, i.e., shipping out veterans for picks and prospects on a large scale in a short span of time.

 

And I agree with rebuilding when the core is a disaster and the organization lacks a critical mass of young talent -  as is the case in Montreal right now.

 

 

 

I agree, when I talk about trying to lose, I am not referring to the players necessarily but when an organization completely guts a team with the intention of trying to be bad then it can have a discouraging effect on the players. 

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As I was doing my rounds today, I found it Interesting to note that Wild defenseman John Merrill (4g, 12a) has the same amount of points as our leading point getter on defense, Ben Chiarot (7g, 9a).

 

Perhaps when we discuss the long list of leaders we lost between last season and this year, his name should be included. :lol:

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

I think very few if any think it is a guarantee ... after decades of mostly "anything can happen" they are just overly anxious to chase elite talent ... MY issue with some "tanquistes" is that there is no sense in tanking just to get the chance at the/a top pick ... Galchenyuk and KK are perfect examples ... this season is not IMO a tank (by my definition that is pre-planned) ... it is just a terrible season ... not certain there are any "franchise/generational" players in the 2022 draft to make this pain truly worthwhile ... but there seem to be in 2023 ... which is why I don't want this to be a quick re-tool ... there needs to be structured rebuild rather than a Hoffman/Dvorak/Savard/etc. patch job ... and I don't think you necessarily disagree.

We weren’t tanking when we drafted KK and Galchenyuk. We were horrible teams. In the Galchenyuk draft year it was a combination of bad Mgmt, players revolting against Martin, and than getting shipped out, and than an owner who cut the balls of his lame duck coach.


In the KK draft year, we went into the season, we went in with the usual in Carey we trust and anything can happy with Carey plan, and when Carey was hurt, or not playing well, the team folded. 
 

both times we got top 3 picks, it was because of mistakes by management, poor player development, and poor roster construction, those were not STRATEGIC tank jobs. Edmonton has never really tried to tank (other than the Hall year). They’ve had horrible management, making dumb moves from Lowe to current Holland.
I don’t believe in the tank every year approach, but do think you need two years of pain when you are int the situation we are in. That brings a losing culture. I also don’t believe in the anything can happen let’s just be a bubble team for 30 years approach. That’s what we have been, with a sprinkle of a few mirage years where everything went right.


I do think that if you don’t have the horses you need to be a LEGIT playoff team team - not one that just catches lightening in a bottle at the right time, and relies MAINLY on just good fortune and collapses by other teams (like past final runs by the oilers, stars, panthers, or the habs last year) - you need to make sure you have better players. Particularly at centre. We’ve had years where we had dominant seasons by a dmen (Markov, Subban), but really not enough skill on D. We’ve had adequate wingers, and years of dominant goaltending. We’ve lacked the dominance and depth at centre since the early/mid nineties though.  Most legit cup contenders are deep down the middle and on the blue line. 
 

you need high end picks to get those players. Penguins, Kings, Hawks, Tampa, Wash, Bruins, all had high end picks. You still need competent management to bring it all together, but you have better chances of success, when you have competent management AND the opportunity to draft elite dominating players.

 

tampa tanked and had great management in both developing players and managing the cap, and gave done well - ditto with the Hawks who than overpaid players like seabrook after the last cup win), and Pens. 
 

Buffalo, Coyotes, Oilers in the (Hall draft), tanked, but had horrible Mgmt. Leafs tanked strategically, but Dubas messed up the third contracts for McDavid, Matthews, and Marner and chases an old unicorn in Tavares, instead of building the D and getting a legit goalie, and wasted picks on Foligno???
 

This year was NOT a tank job by Bergevin. It was incompetence. Yes we had a lot of key injuries, but we had a poorly constructed D, no centre depth, we’re in cap hell, and he was still chasing Savard, Hoffman, and trading a 1st and 2nd for Dvorak - those are not moves you make hen you are tanking. 
 

the rangers strategically tanked are in a good place for their future. I think the Gorton and Hughes combo can do the same. But you can’t go off course. You can’t let the success right now blind you we are as a good as our record during the last 10 games shows - just like we should not have been in last place most of the season.  even with a healthy price, and Weber, we were at best a wild card bubble team ( I still don’t think we would have been ahead of Tampa, Florida, Toronto, Boston). Probably still would have finished between 18-25. Without them, and the other injuries we should probably be between 22-28. That’s not a knock on a price or Weber, its a knock on the construction of the roster.

 

Teams that tank and still suck have bad management as the underlying problem. For the first time since the idiotic move that put the unholy trinity in charge (Corey,Houle, Tremblay), I think we have a competent management team, and I have some optimism that with the right moves by 2024, we can become a playoff team, while Boston will probably be on the outside looking in.

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Montreal passed on Juolevi and he went to Detroit instead.  With Edmundson expected to play Wednesday, it would have been hard to even carry Juolevi on the roster unless a trade was made sooner than later (Schueneman will be the casualty when Edmundson is activated).

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35 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

Montreal passed on Juolevi and he went to Detroit instead.  With Edmundson expected to play Wednesday, it would have been hard to even carry Juolevi on the roster unless a trade was made sooner than later (Schueneman will be the casualty when Edmundson is activated).

 

Detroit has 43 contracts after this move.  They have room to take this chance in the 50 man limit that we dont.

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31 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Do we have a trade to snoozzzz...

Image result for falling asleep at desk gif

 

TSN and Sportsnet PRAYING nothing happens until deadline day.

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Lehkonen still most likely gone within 2 weeks?

 

Kracken are really pushing for basement; 1 pt up on Habs, losing today and already played 2 more games.

But Arizona up 6-1 vs WIngs.:thumbs_up:

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3 hours ago, dlbalr said:

Anaheim saying they're willing to listen on offers on their pending UFAs will slow down the Chiarot market considerably.

 

Here is a Tweet about Lindholm being available: 28 yr old, $5.205M/cap pending UFA. 22.41 TOI, 5g15a +5

Other pending UFAs that may be available:

SEA: Giordano    (LD, $6.75M)

NJD: Subban      (RD, $9.0M)

ARZ: Stralman    (RD, $5.5M)

BUF: Miller          (RD, $3.875M) *InjRsrv

BUF: Hagg          (LD, $1.6M)

 

Forwards: Giroux(PHI), Kessel(ARZ), Tierney(OTT, *InjRsrv)

 

A good list available here:

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/seravalli-ducks-hampus-lindholm-becomes-top-blue-line-trade-target-🎯/

 

Edited by alfredoh2009
added link to article cited in tweet
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