hab29RETIRED Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I don't agree with you about Lidstrom vs. Chara. I'd take Lidstrom over Chara anyday anytime. If we had traded Subban for a 31 year old Lidstrom, i would have been fine with that deal. Weber is no Lidstrom and neither was Chara. Lidstrom was a smooth, effortless skater who was almost unhittable. He also proved a defenseman doesn't have to be physical to control the game. Best dman in the league by far since Bobby Orr. There is a reason, the wings play dropped significantly after Lidstrom retired. I'd also argue he should have won more Norris trophies than he did. I have been quite clear about how sick I am about this trade. I'm savage about it. Just watched the predators promo with subban hamming it up and I'm mad again. But... I have thought of a few other things. Why didn't the team vote for him for the King Clancy award? I know it's a minor thing, but in a year that he made that donation, the team voted for max. We don't have a lot to go on regarding division in the room or whatnot, but I really think there was a statement made in that vote. The other thing I've been considering, and I have no stats or info to base it on, but I would be curious to see the posession stats of Chara from 07 to 15. His 30th to 38th birthdays. I bet they were lower than Lidstrom or some of the other premier defenseman of that time. Yet if I were picking the guy I would want as my number one defenseman in that timeframe, 2008 to 2014 Chara would probably top my list. He was a dominant defenseman. He used his size, strength, and reach to control games. Chara didn't win the norris every year because of his points, but a few of the years that Lidstrom won it on reputation, I felt it should have gone to Chara. You don't hear Weber's name synonymous with Chara, but when you start rattling off big dominating defenseman, Pronger Chara Weber are all used in the same sentence. And it's not to say Chara and Pronger are awesome and Weber sucks. I believe Montreal lost this trade. I believe Subban is the better player. But I am not convinced that Weber will not fill a niche on the team and have success with the Canadiens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I am not trying to compare Lidstrom and Chara. Lidstrom is the greatest defenseman I've ever seen. I've never watched Orr. Dont get me wrong. But a couple of those norris trophies he was getting in his 40s were reputation trophies. I can't remember the years, but I do recall thinking Chara should have won the trophy over him at least once. The point I was trying to make was that IMO Chara was the most dominant defenseman in the league for 3 or 4 years but his stats and points did not reflect that. He played the big man game like Weber, and he played it well. Obviously Lidstrom was older and slowing down at the time yet still stellar. Just Chara was a force. The big dudes can do that. Same as Pronger. I would take prime Lidstrom over any player I've seen since Gretzky Mario or Roy. That's how much I loved his game. Don't get me wrong. I was talking about at that moment when Lidstrom was 39 40 and Chara was 31 32. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Habs-Players-Angry-at-Implied-Dislike-of-PK--DallasBishop-e4-Buzz1/1/78216 This would imply that MB (and his proxies) tried to sell us a bill of goods with regards to the "PK is not liked in the room" narrative to help justify the trade. That's just plain gutless...if you and LeGenius wanted him gone, OWN IT...don't try to hedge your bet by seeding a notion that you had to move him in case it doesn't go well, like premeditated damage control. This hurts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSzG6rQd93Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEpSrDzdPmk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 He wasn't liked in the room. Its not a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 He wasn't liked in the room. Its not a lie. It is when stated that way. He was not liked by some. Not all. "Not liked by some" is a good way to describe most people in the world and not a valid reason to trade a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Nope, your right. It seemed like him and Price were good buddies. I know there was a lot of shit about Max not liking him. I heard that's not a stretch at all. I've heard alot of stuff this summer honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Nope, your right. It seemed like him and Price were good buddies. I know there was a lot of shit about Max not liking him. I heard that's not a stretch at all. I've heard alot of stuff this summer honestly. He was good friends with Weise and DSP and both were moved. Plekanec and Subban used to act like they hated each other just to stir the pot (Plekanec is often used as a guy who hates other players. He supposedly hated Sekac when Sekac was playing X-Box at Plek's house when he was traded), Markov and Subban had a close relationship and Subban discussed how Markov was the first guy to really talk to him privately about the way to play and how much Subban respected him, even pointing out Markov is the origin of his number (flip the 6), Galchenyuk said Subban was huge in the development of his career. I've heard on the grapevine that Gallagher didn't like Subban too much and he's tight with Pacioretty, which is why Gallagher was one of the first to welcome Shea Weber (might also be a West coast thing.) This happens after most major players get shipped out of town. You hear the good and the bad. Not all the bad though. Players have a code. Don't mention drugs or sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Yup, for sure. I still miss the guy though. There is no doubt in my mind Therrien had a say in the move too. It's not all about him rubbing players the wrong way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Yup, for sure. I still miss the guy though. There is no doubt in my mind Therrien had a say in the move too. It's not all about him rubbing players the wrong way Close to every example of where a star player and a coach fought, and the coach won, the team loses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/shea-weber-average-nhler-p-k-subban-trade-matt-pfeffer-montreal-canadiens-nashville-predators-analytics/ More fuel for the trade haters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Habs-Players-Angry-at-Implied-Dislike-of-PK--DallasBishop-e4-Buzz1/1/78216 This would imply that MB (and his proxies) tried to sell us a bill of goods with regards to the "PK is not liked in the room" narrative to help justify the trade. That's just plain gutless...if you and LeGenius wanted him gone, OWN IT...don't try to hedge your bet by seeding a notion that you had to move him in case it doesn't go well, like premeditated damage control. This hurts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSzG6rQd93Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEpSrDzdPmk Its scary that something Eklund writes is suddenly taken as the truth just because it says what some people feels. Every other thing he writes is allways classed as bs and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/shea-weber-average-nhler-p-k-subban-trade-matt-pfeffer-montreal-canadiens-nashville-predators-analytics/ More fuel for the trade haters And fuel for the Gallagher haters... If there is any of those here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/shea-weber-average-nhler-p-k-subban-trade-matt-pfeffer-montreal-canadiens-nashville-predators-analytics/ More fuel for the trade haters Pfeffer is learning a harsh lesson when it comes to dealing with the media. This is the second time in a week he has had to walk back comments made after the Habs let him go. He's not helping his cause for getting rehired with stuff like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Close to every example of where a star player and a coach fought, and the coach won, the team loses. We've stolen a page right out of the Bruins' trade manual. Trade gifted core player for a return that 99% of people think is too low, then let it be known that it was because of 'character' issues of some sort. I can't believe anyone is falling for this bafflegab. If you like this trade, then you must think the Seguin and Thornton deals were some ace GMing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Pfeffer is learning a harsh lesson when it comes to dealing with the media. This is the second time in a week he has had to walk back comments made after the Habs let him go. He's not helping his cause for getting rehired with stuff like this. He's also 21 and probably wasn't ready at all for this experience. He looks like he's gonna team up with a statistical group, which is likely the best thing for him. I don't think Weber is average at all. That was a bad word to use. Too often the people working analytics get far too caught up in the numbers in front of them before looking at any statistical abnormalities. I think that article posted earlier about Weber's statistics being muddled by Gaustad did a good job creating clarity. Context is everything when it comes to statistics, from a goal to a save to an on-ice differential. Pfeffer is gonna be the guinea pig on this. He's taking a beating from guys like Patrick O'Sullivan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ethan Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Habs-Players-Angry-at-Implied-Dislike-of-PK--DallasBishop-e4-Buzz1/1/78216 This would imply that MB (and his proxies) tried to sell us a bill of goods with regards to the "PK is not liked in the room" narrative to help justify the trade. That's just plain gutless...if you and LeGenius wanted him gone, OWN IT...don't try to hedge your bet by seeding a notion that you had to move him in case it doesn't go well, like premeditated damage control. This hurts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSzG6rQd93Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEpSrDzdPmk Hey Showboat, if you know the words to this song feel free to sing along...... Oh, you don't oh well, lip synch and let the other guys in the band sing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ethan Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 He's also 21 and probably wasn't ready at all for this experience. He looks like he's gonna team up with a statistical group, which is likely the best thing for him. I don't think Weber is average at all. That was a bad word to use. Too often the people working analytics get far too caught up in the numbers in front of them before looking at any statistical abnormalities. I think that article posted earlier about Weber's statistics being muddled by Gaustad did a good job creating clarity. Context is everything when it comes to statistics, from a goal to a save to an on-ice differential. Pfeffer is gonna be the guinea pig on this. He's taking a beating from guys like Patrick O'Sullivan. Dweebs should stick to fantasy sports and avoid real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Dweebs should stick to fantasy sports and avoid real life. Thank you for your important contributions to our conversation. I don't know where we would be if we didn't have comments like this. The point you have made created an intellectual stimulus that has made me re-consider all my opinions, and now changed my view on things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 He's also 21 and probably wasn't ready at all for this experience. He looks like he's gonna team up with a statistical group, which is likely the best thing for him. I don't think Weber is average at all. That was a bad word to use. Too often the people working analytics get far too caught up in the numbers in front of them before looking at any statistical abnormalities. I think that article posted earlier about Weber's statistics being muddled by Gaustad did a good job creating clarity. Context is everything when it comes to statistics, from a goal to a save to an on-ice differential. Pfeffer is gonna be the guinea pig on this. He's taking a beating from guys like Patrick O'Sullivan. Cheers! I didn't think anyone read it hah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HabsWEST Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 One key factor that will tilt worse the trade for this one season: Simply --- Subban isn't playing in the WC and come end of season and playoffs PK and Nashville will have more legs than : --- WEBER the WC games he is playing and let's see how far he has dropped from his peak..in last part of season ..IF the Habs are in the playoff race.. And let's hope Weber doesnt get injured during WC.. Than we are looking at no playoffs this coming season.. why the heck did MB do this trade.. One for one..position for position.. There is absolutely no upside..and more downside as per above.. MB will get fired I hope..along with his side shows MT... Unbelievable in everyway.. All the best in Nashville PK! Prove these clowns wrong!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 We've stolen a page right out of the Bruins' trade manual. Trade gifted core player for a return that 99% of people think is too low, then let it be known that it was because of 'character' issues of some sort. I can't believe anyone is falling for this bafflegab. If you like this trade, then you must think the Seguin and Thornton deals were some ace GMing.I think the Eriksson Seguin trade is a good example because they both had fairly similar seasons in the lockout shortened season but Seguin was clearly going to be the better player. The difference in the trade was that Seguin was 21 or 6 years younger than Subban is at the time of the trade. Give some time for a player to mature, no? It's not entirely the same situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Eklund actually does have a lot of contact with players - which is not the same thing as being an insider for decent trade rumours like Mckenzie or Freidman). Engels wrote as the Habs writer on his site prior to getting the sportsnet gig. I'm inclined to believe his unnamed sources here, more than the local Montreal media gossip, because of the nature of the Montreal media. Its scary that something Eklund writes is suddenly taken as the truth just because it says what some people feels. Every other thing he writes is allways classed as bs and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Subban als has accomplished more individually in the NHL than Weber (Norris, more playoff wins, same number of points in less games on an off year), so this trade is simply management not liking the player and the personality - which there is history from before MT started coaching subban, to him singling out subban for all that ails the team for their losses. I think the Eriksson Seguin trade is a good example because they both had fairly similar seasons in the lockout shortened season but Seguin was clearly going to be the better player. The difference in the trade was that Seguin was 21 or 6 years younger than Subban is at the time of the trade. Give some time for a player to mature, no? It's not entirely the same situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Eklund actually does have a lot of contact with players - which is not the same thing as being an insider for decent trade rumours like Mckenzie or Freidman). Engels wrote as the Habs writer on his site prior to getting the sportsnet gig. I'm inclined to believe his unnamed sources here, more than the local Montreal media gossip, because of the nature of the Montreal media. Eklund's original sources were all based in Philadelphia. He had a lot of insider stuff about Montreal at one point because of his sources connected to Daniel Briere. That all stopped when Briere was traded. If Eklund is talking like he knows something in the locker it's old stuff when Danny was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Thanks to Dlbalr for finding my email among new user requests and getting back to meafter a lost password/CPU change/obsolete email. I didn't get to chime in when this happened, but I was more upset about this trade than anything else in my entire life (turning 30) as a hockey fan. My father, who has been following the team since 1965, said this was the most upsetting trade in his lifetime since Oakland traded Reggie Jackson. When I got the txt from a buddy, I thought he was ing with me since I literally checked the Twitter bug after the Hall deal, and the Stamkos signing. I was like, yeah, nice one. Then I checked again. This is simply a bad deal for Montreal. I don't think they have the horses to win the Stanley Cup in the next two years, which would be the the great redeemer of this swap. Weber has ten years left on his deal. This deal is going to hurt years 6-10. Could be a laugher on the scale of Chris Pronger's deal. This trade reminds me of the contrast between Stevie and Jimmie Vaughan; the Habs traded the most overstated player in the game for the least. That being said, they didn't trade PK for a sack of magic beans. Shea Weber is an excellent hockey player and his professionalism and standing will bring a sort of legitimacy to the team that's been missing for two decades. But you can't replace what Subban brought: entertainment. Shea Weber is not fun to watch. He's not fun to listen to. He looks like he's stoned or half asleep. A hang with Shea Weber would be four hours of a fishing line off a boat and a smattering of little comments. For sure.... Once again, they will be our Montreal Canadienzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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