Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[Meller93]

Do you really think his contract wasn't renewed solely because they disagreed on a trade? Seems a little too extreme to be realistic. By that logic, every scout should have been fired plenty of times by now.

I agree. Unless he completely freaked out. But yea probably more was to it

[Scott462]

If we're going to make such wild inferences from team success to individual player merit, it'd probably make more sense to say that Nashville's success proves that Roman Josi is better than Andrei Markov - a claim even more demonstrably true than that Subban is better than Weber (which he is).

I would say Markov and Weber are more similar in the fact that they are more of a defencive defence man holding down the fort for Josi and Subban to make the more riskier plays. A reason to think that Markov has been a crucial d man for Montreal for a long time because of his reliability but back to my point of Subban and Weber being a different kind of D man, I don't think it's fair to say it's so black and white as one is better than the other.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Scott462

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Ha! Me too, I'll admit. Realistically, though, Weber is probably not going to go belly-up right away...the decline will be slower than that. So, we should get a couple of near-prime years out of him.

Since this is the first time in a decade that Weber is not paired with a D-man at least as good as he is, I still think much will depend on Beaulieu. If Michel Therrien pairs Middle-Aged Weber with Old Man Markov - which, being a drooling idiot, he probably will - a Norris Trophy nomination would be borderline miraculous.

I've been silently worried that he goes to a Markov-Weber pairing as well which I think would be the worst possible option. Could be a decent PP option but again they'd probably be playing the wrong side. Beaulieu would be better and I think there can even be a case made that Barberio would be as well.

Just to touch on another thing, I wouldn't put too much thought into those who think Weber is better simply because Nashville went deep. That team, outside of Weber, has a lot of underrated talent. I haven't heard too much of that argument but I would take it with a grain of salt.

By the same token on the opposite spectrum, I find those who claim Weber is over the hill and use his game 7 showing as an indicator of such to be equally, if not more outlandish. One game = career I guess.

[hab29RETIRED]

Rinne was the reason Nashville got as far in the playoffs as they did this year.

Rinne is garbage. IMO, goaltending is what's holding NSH back no matter who plays defence for them.

[hab29RETIRED]

Markov is NOT a solid defensive dman anymore. He ha gotten a pass from mgmt but he was the main reason for a lot more goals against than Subban this year.

Weber was propped up by Suter for years and last year was propped up by Josi- who is better defensively than weber.

I would say Markov and Weber are more similar in the fact that they are more of a defencive defence man holding down the fort for Josi and Subban to make the more riskier plays. A reason to think that Markov has been a crucial d man for Montreal for a long time because of his reliability but back to my point of Subban and Weber being a different kind of D man, I don't think it's fair to say it's so black and white as one is better than the other.

[dlbalr]

Rinne was the reason Nashville got as far in the playoffs as they did this year.

Well, his SV% and GAA in the postseason were both worse than his regular season numbers. He may have had some good games but there were some real clunkers in there. That reminds me of Condon, whose regular season GAA/SV% are extremely close to that of Rinne's postseason numbers interestingly enough (2.71/.903 vs 2.63/.906).

[DON]

Ha! Me too, I'll admit. Realistically, though, Weber is probably not going to go belly-up right away...the decline will be slower than that. So, we should get a couple of near-prime years out of him.

Since this is the first time in a decade that Weber is not paired with a D-man at least as good as he is, I still think much will depend on Beaulieu. If Michel Therrien pairs Middle-Aged Weber with Old Man Markov - which, being a drooling idiot, he probably will - a Norris Trophy nomination would be borderline miraculous.

Perhaps you mean like a Idiot-savant with a knack for advanced stats.

[Scott462]

Markov is NOT a solid defensive dman anymore. He ha gotten a pass from mgmt but he was the main reason for a lot more goals against than Subban this year.

Weber was propped up by Suter for years and last year was propped up by Josi- who is better defensively than weber.

I agree that Markov did not have a good season last year and is starting to show his age but in the past he was a solid D man and still is but they need to watch his minutes

Sutter and Josi propped up Weber? Do you really believe that? It couldn't be that they both had really good chemistry with Weber?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Scott462

[Meller93]

I agree that Markov did not have a good season last year and is starting to show his age but in the past he was a solid D man and still is but they need to watch his minutes

Sutter and Josi propped up Weber? Do you really believe that? It couldn't be that they both had really good chemistry with Weber?

Mutual benefit would be a more realistic term. I mean, Suter has done well for himself sans Weber no? And, I have some strange feeling that Josi will be just fine

[habscout]

I've been silently worried that he goes to a Markov-Weber pairing as well which I think would be the worst possible option. Could be a decent PP option but again they'd probably be playing the wrong side. Beaulieu would be better and I think there can even be a case made that Barberio would be as well.

Just to touch on another thing, I wouldn't put too much thought into those who think Weber is better simply because Nashville went deep. That team, outside of Weber, has a lot of underrated talent. I haven't heard too much of that argument but I would take it with a grain of salt.

By the same token on the opposite spectrum, I find those who claim Weber is over the hill and use his game 7 showing as an indicator of such to be equally, if not more outlandish. One game = career I guess.

I'm not worried about the Markov-Weber pairing, I'm counting on it. Just like I'm counting on the two of them not meshing together. But it will take MT considerable time to figure it out, and they'll likely mess up a few times, leading to a few non-necessary goals against, and likely lose a few games. But MT will stubbornly keep playing them together because he's an old school coach, and playing the top 2 veterans on the team the most ice time is the way it should be, in his mind.

[Link67]

Markov is NOT a solid defensive dman anymore. He ha gotten a pass from mgmt but he was the main reason for a lot more goals against than Subban this year.

Weber was propped up by Suter for years and last year was propped up by Josi- who is better defensively than weber.

Right, now suddenly Sutter and Josi are hall of famers and Weber is a bum for the past 8 years. You didn't see Weber dominating at the olympics in ice time and coaches trust? at all star game after all star game you think those were all fluke appearances? Perhaps his Norris nominations should have gone to his partners instead? This is the type of thing i'm talkin about, people are so emotional about the trade they can't keep any opinion objective when it comes to the Subban trade. Are we seriously trying to say that Weber has not been an elite force on the blue line for the past 5 to 6 years? have we seriously convinced ourselves that Weber is mediocre and has been since the start, that it is actually his partners who make him good and they should get the credit? Are we trying to say it is grand larceny that Sutter has not won a Norris while in Minnesota away from Weber? That Josi doesn't benefit AT ALL from Weber as a partner but Weber reaps all the rewards of playing with Josi?

Cause if so then i'm officially mentally checking out from this debate until Weber proves to you people that watching Nashville highlights on Sportscenter is not the same as watching Nashville games night in and night out, watching all he brings to the table as a player for his team. Because quite frankly every hockey person who watches the guy closely has nothing but good things to say about him, but not here, oh no, the tiny island of Montreal has looked through the all seeing mirror, and they see a steaming pile of poop when it comes to what Weber has to offer any hockey club.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Am I the only person who remembers Price being the MVP of Team Canada and that being messed up with all the talent in front of him?

[Helmethead]

Right, now suddenly Sutter and Josi are hall of famers and Weber is a bum for the past 8 years. You didn't see Weber dominating at the olympics in ice time and coaches trust? at all star game after all star game you think those were all fluke appearances? Perhaps his Norris nominations should have gone to his partners instead? This is the type of thing i'm talkin about, people are so emotional about the trade they can't keep any opinion objective when it comes to the Subban trade. Are we seriously trying to say that Weber has not been an elite force on the blue line for the past 5 to 6 years? have we seriously convinced ourselves that Weber is mediocre and has been since the start, that it is actually his partners who make him good and they should get the credit? Are we trying to say it is grand larceny that Sutter has not won a Norris while in Minnesota away from Weber? That Josi doesn't benefit AT ALL from Weber as a partner but Weber reaps all the rewards of playing with Josi?

Cause if so then i'm officially mentally checking out from this debate until Weber proves to you people that watching Nashville highlights on Sportscenter is not the same as watching Nashville games night in and night out, watching all he brings to the table as a player for his team. Because quite frankly every hockey person who watches the guy closely has nothing but good things to say about him, but not here, oh no, the tiny island of Montreal has looked through the all seeing mirror, and they see a steaming pile of poop when it comes to what Weber has to offer any hockey club.

Congrats my friend. Post of the summer in my book.

[DON]

I'm not worried about the Markov-Weber pairing, I'm counting on it. Just like I'm counting on the two of them not meshing together. But it will take MT considerable time to figure it out, and they'll likely mess up a few times, leading to a few non-necessary goals against, and likely lose a few games. But MT will stubbornly keep playing them together because he's an old school coach, and playing the top 2 veterans on the team the most ice time is the way it should be, in his mind.

Subban has been a veteran for how long then, as he has had a fair chunk of icetime on the top pairing for years?

[JGC21]

Am I the only person who remembers Price being the MVP of Team Canada and that being messed up with all the talent in front of him?

Yes.

[Commandant]

What I will agree with is that Weber is of a unique mould when you look at the top 15 defensemen in scoring from last season. I had a long thought written out the other day but decided not to share it but you have the Karlsson, Letang, Doughty, Ekman Larsson, Josi, Klingberg, Giordano, Barrie, Hedman and Subbans of the league, you have the Suter, Seabrook, Yandles who are somewhere in between, then you have Byfuglien and Burns' who can also play RW, and then you have Weber in a 'league' of his own.

Wouldn't be the smartest thing in the world to defend a trade based on something we do in the future but I think we do agree that much hinges on how prepared Beaulieu is to take that next step. I sincerely feel like there were phases during Subbans (yes) mediocre season that Bealieu looked better than him. We just need to see that more on a consistent basis. I also feel like it will be much easier to acquire another Subban like player in the future than it would have ever been to acquire a Chara or Weber or Byfuglien or Burns.

I always like to point out that I didn't like the trade when I heard about it but it is true that the Webers are a rare breed. And before we start claiming that it is because of the direction the league is heading with speed and puck possession, I'd like to see Weber actually have a bad season first. Not mention it directly after a season where he was tied with other elite defensemen in points all while bringing other elements to the table.

Weber has had plenty of good offensive seasons.

His last 3 can be seen as bad defensively though.

You want to break down this trade...

With PK we finished 9th last in the league.

With Weber Nashville made the playoffs and had a good run.

PK is top 5 when it comes to offensive defenseman

But when it comes to defensive defenseman I wouldn't even put him in the top ten.

Weber is top 5 when it comes to defensive defenseman.

When it comes to offensive defenseman I would put him in the top 10.

When it comes to trying to clear the front of the net in the last min of a game to get the win I would much rather have Weber.

I would say we got the better of the trade for what we need now.

What I don't get is if your going to trade a top trading chip like PK is why not get what this team hasn't had in the last 20 years which is a top playmaking center. That's what I don't understand.

But when you take that out and look at the trade itself I think Weber is the better player.

You'd be right.... Except for the fact that its a complete myth that Weber is a good defensive defenceman in 2016.

[PMAC]

Right, now suddenly Sutter and Josi are hall of famers and Weber is a bum for the past 8 years. You didn't see Weber dominating at the olympics in ice time and coaches trust? at all star game after all star game you think those were all fluke appearances? Perhaps his Norris nominations should have gone to his partners instead? This is the type of thing i'm talkin about, people are so emotional about the trade they can't keep any opinion objective when it comes to the Subban trade. Are we seriously trying to say that Weber has not been an elite force on the blue line for the past 5 to 6 years? have we seriously convinced ourselves that Weber is mediocre and has been since the start, that it is actually his partners who make him good and they should get the credit? Are we trying to say it is grand larceny that Sutter has not won a Norris while in Minnesota away from Weber? That Josi doesn't benefit AT ALL from Weber as a partner but Weber reaps all the rewards of playing with Josi?

Cause if so then i'm officially mentally checking out from this debate until Weber proves to you people that watching Nashville highlights on Sportscenter is not the same as watching Nashville games night in and night out, watching all he brings to the table as a player for his team. Because quite frankly every hockey person who watches the guy closely has nothing but good things to say about him, but not here, oh no, the tiny island of Montreal has looked through the all seeing mirror, and they see a steaming pile of poop when it comes to what Weber has to offer any hockey club.

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

Right, now suddenly Sutter and Josi are hall of famers and Weber is a bum for the past 8 years. You didn't see Weber dominating at the olympics in ice time and coaches trust? at all star game after all star game you think those were all fluke appearances? Perhaps his Norris nominations should have gone to his partners instead? This is the type of thing i'm talkin about, people are so emotional about the trade they can't keep any opinion objective when it comes to the Subban trade. Are we seriously trying to say that Weber has not been an elite force on the blue line for the past 5 to 6 years? have we seriously convinced ourselves that Weber is mediocre and has been since the start, that it is actually his partners who make him good and they should get the credit? Are we trying to say it is grand larceny that Sutter has not won a Norris while in Minnesota away from Weber? That Josi doesn't benefit AT ALL from Weber as a partner but Weber reaps all the rewards of playing with Josi?

Cause if so then i'm officially mentally checking out from this debate until Weber proves to you people that watching Nashville highlights on Sportscenter is not the same as watching Nashville games night in and night out, watching all he brings to the table as a player for his team. Because quite frankly every hockey person who watches the guy closely has nothing but good things to say about him, but not here, oh no, the tiny island of Montreal has looked through the all seeing mirror, and they see a steaming pile of poop when it comes to what Weber has to offer any hockey club.

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

One of the instances which has made Bergevin look weak on the trade in my opinion was when he mentioned that he spoke to Weber about acquiring Radulov. It's as though he was trying to subliminally brainwash the fanbase that it was another Gomez = Gionta, Cammalleri, Gill situation... Or simply put, Subban for Weber & Radulov.

If he was trying to spin it that way, then it's not really a positive thing to say the least. If it's true however and Radulov turns out to be one of the better free agents, then I think we can put the argument that we didn't trade for a forward to rest. I'll just hope that we resign Radulov for another few years as well if that's the case.

[illWill]

This is the type of thing i'm talkin about, people are so emotional about the trade they can't keep any opinion objective when it comes to the Subban trade.

This

I'm of the opinion that we should see how it all plays out before getting the pitchforks ready to run management out of town. If this team sucks then I'll be right there in the front of the pack but until then, it's not fair to vilify an organization before a single game is played.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

Excellent post.

[habs rule]

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

Actually, I don't think anyone is disputing that Weber was a top defenseman and that he might still be for a few seasons. I think what has many of us upset is that Weber, if not in decline is one the cusp of decline while Subban has yet to reach his peak. In short, we traded an appreciating asset for a declining one and MB failed to get anything additional back to hedge against the risk of this possibility. Couple that with the fact that we traded one of our top assets and didn't get an elite forward to fill our most glaring need and you have a large # of the fanbase questioning the decision making of our GM.

This only ends two ways: one the Habs are an elite team and win the cup before Weber's inevitable decline becomes fact rather than speculation = Bergevin is a genius or (much more likely, many of us fear) we don't win the cup; Weber declines while PK is still starring in Nashville and we are left to bemoan the assinine trade of a top defender a la Langway, Chelios and to a lesser extent McDonagh. That is why people are upset not because we think Weber was useless or is today.

Totally agree.

[DON]

This

I'm of the opinion that we should see how it all plays out before getting the pitchforks ready to run management out of town. If this team sucks then I'll be right there in the front of the pack but until then, it's not fair to vilify an organization before a single game is played.

Voice of reason.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The team won't suck. Price will be back. And also Radulov will probably help, Galy will probably hit full stride, and Shaw is an improvement. We'll probably be top-10.

But that way of framing the debate slants the discussion in favour of The Trade. It won't change the fact that the trade sucks and that the team would have been better in keeping Subban. We did great, even won the Cup, after trading Chelios, but that doesn't mean that that was a good trade either. We went to the semi-finals with Gomez, but that doesn't justify the McDonagh trade. The key question is: who is a better hockey player, today? Who will be a better hockey player in 3-4 years? Who will be a better hockey player in 6-7 years? Barring some unforeseeable circumstance (e.g., massive injury) the answer to all these questions is PK Subban.

I don't believe that a team with a management group stupid enough to make this trade will ever win a Cup. We are the Toronto Maple Leafs, or the post-Cup Bruins. But if by the grace of Carey Price we do win, which given Weber's likely deterioration will have to be within the next 2-3 years, then Bergevin will win the argument. Other than that, all the actual information we have (except vague innuendo) suggests this is a dumb trade, period.

[Meller93]

The team won't suck. Price will be back. And also Radulov will probably help, Galy will probably hit full stride, and Shaw is an improvement. We'll probably be top-10.

But that way of framing the debate slants the discussion in favour of The Trade. It won't change the fact that the trade sucks and that the team would have been better in keeping Subban. We did great, even won the Cup, after trading Chelios, but that doesn't mean that that was a good trade either. We went to the semi-finals with Gomez, but that doesn't justify the McDonagh trade. The key question is: who is a better hockey player, today? Who will be a better hockey player in 3-4 years? Who will be a better hockey player in 6-7 years? Barring some unforeseeable circumstance (e.g., massive injury) the answer to all these questions is PK Subban.

I don't believe that a team with a management group stupid enough to make this trade will ever win a Cup. We are the Toronto Maple Leafs, or the post-Cup Bruins. But if by the grace of Carey Price we do win, which given Weber's likely deterioration will have to be within the next 2-3 years, then Bergevin will win the argument. Other than that, all the actual information we have (except vague innuendo) suggests this is a dumb trade, period.

Exactly, the trade itself just isn't a good one. Like you said, we'll probably end up top ten, but not because this was a good trade.

Now I'm not saying it's impossible Weber makes the team better, no one could right now. But Montreal lost out. It would have honestly taken nashville's 1st as well for me to justify it at all, and even then I wouldn't have liked it.

I just really hope Weber brings that magic I don't know what that will Bergevin sees as better than PK.

[illWill]

The team won't suck. Price will be back. And also Radulov will probably help, Galy will probably hit full stride, and Shaw is an improvement. We'll probably be top-10.

But that way of framing the debate slants the discussion in favour of The Trade. It won't change the fact that the trade sucks and that the team would have been better in keeping Subban. We did great, even won the Cup, after trading Chelios, but that doesn't mean that that was a good trade either. We went to the semi-finals with Gomez, but that doesn't justify the McDonagh trade. The key question is: who is a better hockey player, today? Who will be a better hockey player in 3-4 years? Who will be a better hockey player in 6-7 years? Barring some unforeseeable circumstance (e.g., massive injury) the answer to all these questions is PK Subban.

I don't believe that a team with a management group stupid enough to make this trade will ever win a Cup. We are the Toronto Maple Leafs, or the post-Cup Bruins. But if by the grace of Carey Price we do win, which given Weber's likely deterioration will have to be within the next 2-3 years, then Bergevin will win the argument. Other than that, all the actual information we have (except vague innuendo) suggests this is a dumb trade, period.

Saying the trade sucks is just an opinion. There are plenty of opinions that suggest it is a great trade for Montreal. It's likely a debate that will last forever like the Chelios trade you mentioned. They won a cup after that trade. Do you mean to tell me you wouldn't trade a Cup for Subban? I know I would trade for it even if it meant being a basement team for years after. If Shea Weber lifts a Cup for the Habs, Habs win the trade IMO