Prime Minister Koivu Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 NHL is not a legit sport - it’s entertainment like wrestling. Pro sports like MLB, NFL, NBA have consistent, predictable reffing. They make mistakes too but the NHL is like the wrestling nonsense where the ref gets knocked out and hilarity ensues. The only way it changes is if the poor reffing shows up on American news channels day in and day out as a spectacle. NHL refs sway the game on purpose, we have all heard the hot mike. What legit pro sports league let’s their refs shape the game like they do in the NHL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan84 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 8 hours ago, revvvrob said: Article in the athletic is saying Lee & O’Rourke are likely officiating again game 4. This is ridiculous. You would hope that the NHL will talk with the refs ahead of game 4. I am sure they are not oblivious to the media talk surrounding game 3. The players and coaches did a good job of not saying anything in the media but I'm sure Bergevin has made a private call to the NHL. Something has to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 39 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: What legit pro sports league let’s their refs shape the game like they do in the NHL? I think if betting on NHL was on the level as those other sports, it would have to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, DON said: I think if betting on NHL was on the level as those other sports, it would have to improve. This is the big difference I think as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 37 minutes ago, DON said: I think if betting on NHL was on the level as those other sports, it would have to improve. That is a great point 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 I think the loss of Ducharme as bench boss may prove more significant, in hockey terms, than people are recognizing. He has done an excellent job with adjustments and bench management through these playoffs. Unless we grant that coaches are interchangeable, then it is quite possible Richardson will do worse at the shift-by-shift, bench-managing micro stuff. (The “macro” stuff, like game plans, DD can still oversee, of course). It’s great that we overcame the complete domination by Vegas last game, but that domination was not a good sign. As for DD transmitting Covid to the players, hey, guess what? Maybe LOWERING YOUR MASK EVERY TIME YOU SPEAK is not a great Covid-prevention strategy. Coaches have been doing this all season, and it is dumb as a frigging pylon. What happens if Habs’ players get Covid? Is the series suspended, or do we just have to play without those guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: NHL is not a legit sport - it’s entertainment like wrestling. Pro sports like MLB, NFL, NBA have consistent, predictable reffing. They make mistakes too but the NHL is like the wrestling nonsense where the ref gets knocked out and hilarity ensues. The only way it changes is if the poor reffing shows up on American news channels day in and day out as a spectacle. NHL refs sway the game on purpose, we have all heard the hot mike. What legit pro sports league let’s their refs shape the game like they do in the NHL? Baseball umpires are way worse than NHL refs. Umpires each have their own strike zone, none of which is how the rules are written. Even different pitchers get different strike zones, because umps give good pitchers more leeway (Greg Maddux had one of the biggest strike zones ever). MLB umpires also love putting themselves at the center of attention when players or managers come out to yell at them. Officials in other sports just stand there nonplussed while they get yelled at and eject when necessary. Umpires escalate things by yelling and screaming right back and then ejecting people. I can't say much about NBA refs because I haven't watched it much in the last 20 years. But towards the end of me watching they had lost the ability to tell the difference between a charge and a block. NFL refs aren't great either. Pass interference was being called so inconsistently that they out in review for any possible PI call. The results were even more inconsistent and did nothing but slow the game down, so they get rid of the ability to challenge it. And just watch the line of scrimmage - you could make a call on pretty much every play. And determining what a catch is? It's a joke. Hockey is in no worse shape that's any other sport when it comes to officiating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: What happens if Habs’ players get Covid? Is the series suspended, or do we just have to play without those guys? It all depends on how many. Vegas had McNabb on the CPRA list in the first round (plus Reaves and Krebs for a day) and they went on with their series. If the Habs had a couple of players get it, they'd probably go forward. If a bunch had it, that'd be a tougher scenario to call. July 15th* is the latest end date for the Stanley Cup Final so they'd probably have to schedule backwards from there to see what type of options they have. If it was an extended shutdown, I suspect there would be game forfeitures at some point. The good news is the players have had both shots and no one hit the CPRA list yesterday. They should be good to go. *Edit: It was originally the 9th when the season started but it looks like it's now the 15th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said: Hockey is in no worse shape that's any other sport when it comes to officiating. A hold, pass interference (even if inconsistent), fighting (instant ejection/fine/suspension 100% of time) in NFL is called same in pre-season game as in last 10 seconds of superbowl (it seems to me anyways, am sure are stats guys who say show if am out to lunch). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 23 hours ago, Fanpuck33 said: Baseball umpires are way worse than NHL refs. Umpires each have their own strike zone, none of which is how the rules are written. Even different pitchers get different strike zones, because umps give good pitchers more leeway (Greg Maddux had one of the biggest strike zones ever). MLB umpires also love putting themselves at the center of attention when players or managers come out to yell at them. Officials in other sports just stand there nonplussed while they get yelled at and eject when necessary. Umpires escalate things by yelling and screaming right back and then ejecting people. I can't say much about NBA refs because I haven't watched it much in the last 20 years. But towards the end of me watching they had lost the ability to tell the difference between a charge and a block. NFL refs aren't great either. Pass interference was being called so inconsistently that they out in review for any possible PI call. The results were even more inconsistent and did nothing but slow the game down, so they get rid of the ability to challenge it. And just watch the line of scrimmage - you could make a call on pretty much every play. And determining what a catch is? It's a joke. Hockey is in no worse shape that's any other sport when it comes to officiating. Still feel this way after last night? NHL is corrupt - how else can what happened last night be explained? No legit professional league would allow what we saw in game 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Still feel this way after last night? NHL is corrupt - how else can what happened last night be explained? No legit professional league would allow what we saw in game 4. Has the reffing been atrocious? 100%. But just play Devil's Advocate - the above figures, in themselves, in no way prove bias. The Habs may just be deservedly taking more penalties. To me, the real problem is less bias per se (although I do think that that exists) than wild inconsistency. They let everything go, then call a completely marginal BS call on Suzuki in Game 3, which they later "make up for" with a marginal call against VGK. The original sin is in letting everything go in the first place. That strategy ALWAYS leads to escalation - reaching a point where guys are punching each other in the face, or brutally cross-checking each other, right in front of the refs; and then everyone is left asking what the hell is going on. The cowardly determination "not to be a factor" leads to the refs being the center of discussion, and a game in which anything goes is a game in which the dirtiest team all too often wins. It also makes injuries much more likely. Incidentally, this is not the first playoff where a skill guy has been punched in the face in front of the ref without reprisal. Doesn't anyone remember Marchand punching Henrik Sedin repeatedly in the 2011 Final? (As for bias, it occurs, not because the ref has a childish fandom for one franchise over another, or because he's been paid off, but because some teams get a reputation among officials for "not playing the right way." The catalogue of sins can be long: maybe they whine too much; maybe they are known for diving, which as we all know is a vastly worse crime than brutally concussing someone; maybe they have a rep for stickwork; whatever. I do believe this particular Habs team is not well-beloved of refs. It goes back to the start of the season: remember how many penalties we took when we were tearing up the league in the first 15 games?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Has the reffing been atrocious? 100%. But just play Devil's Advocate - the above figures, in themselves, in no way prove bias. The Habs may just be deservedly taking more penalties. To me, the real problem is less bias per se (although I do think that that exists) than wild inconsistency. They let everything go, then call a completely marginal BS call on Suzuki in Game 3, which they later "make up for" with a marginal call against VGK. The original sin is in letting everything go in the first place. That strategy ALWAYS leads to escalation - reaching a point where guys are punching each other in the face, or brutally cross-checking each other, right in front of the refs; and then everyone is left asking what the hell is going on. The cowardly determination "not to be a factor" leads to the refs being the center of discussion, and a game in which anything goes is a game in which the dirtiest team all too often wins. It also makes injuries much more likely. Incidentally, this is not the first playoff where a skill guy has been punched in the face in front of the ref without reprisal. Doesn't anyone remember Marchand punching Henrik Sedin repeatedly in the 2011 Final? (As for bias, it occurs, not because the ref has a childish fandom for one franchise over another, or because he's been paid off, but because some teams get a reputation among officials for "not playing the right way." The catalogue of sins can be long: maybe they whine too much; maybe they are known for diving, which as we all know is a vastly worse crime than brutally concussing someone; maybe they have a rep for stickwork; whatever. I do believe this particular Habs team is not well-beloved of refs. It goes back to the start of the season: remember how many penalties we took when we were tearing up the league in the first 15 games?) Good post as usual 👍 I would submit that last night was the most blatant, excessive display of bad reffing - whatever the reason - that I have ever seen. Molson and/or Bergevin need to step up and call this out publicly. Stand up for your team. Refs managing the game is wrong but nothing new. I’ve never seen anything like last night however Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted June 21, 2021 Author Share Posted June 21, 2021 33 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Good post as usual 👍 I would submit that last night was the most blatant, excessive display of bad reffing - whatever the reason - that I have ever seen. Molson and/or Bergevin need to step up and call this out publicly. Stand up for your team. Refs managing the game is wrong but nothing new. I’ve never seen anything like last night however To the best of my knowledge, the GM submits a package to the NHL Officials association after every game critiquing the officiating, this includes the linesmen. Every GM does it or at least can do it. It’s usually why in the playoffs, the Toronto series as a good example, you see the calls go one way for a few games and then make a shift after that. You have to remember that these officials get paid extra for officiating playoff games. The better they do, the more playoff games they get, the more they make. That being said, there’s no way O’Rourke and Lee ref another game in these playoffs after those 2 last games. If there a shortage of officials, maybe they officiate the Lightening-Islanders series, but there’s no way any of the last 4 GMs will not protest them officiating another game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 49 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Has the reffing been atrocious? 100%. But just play Devil's Advocate - the above figures, in themselves, in no way prove bias. The Habs may just be deservedly taking more penalties. To me, the real problem is less bias per se (although I do think that that exists) than wild inconsistency. They let everything go, then call a completely marginal BS call on Suzuki in Game 3, which they later "make up for" with a marginal call against VGK. The original sin is in letting everything go in the first place. That strategy ALWAYS leads to escalation - reaching a point where guys are punching each other in the face, or brutally cross-checking each other, right in front of the refs; and then everyone is left asking what the hell is going on. The cowardly determination "not to be a factor" leads to the refs being the center of discussion, and a game in which anything goes is a game in which the dirtiest team all too often wins. It also makes injuries much more likely. Incidentally, this is not the first playoff where a skill guy has been punched in the face in front of the ref without reprisal. Doesn't anyone remember Marchand punching Henrik Sedin repeatedly in the 2011 Final? (As for bias, it occurs, not because the ref has a childish fandom for one franchise over another, or because he's been paid off, but because some teams get a reputation among officials for "not playing the right way." The catalogue of sins can be long: maybe they whine too much; maybe they are known for diving, which as we all know is a vastly worse crime than brutally concussing someone; maybe they have a rep for stickwork; whatever. I do believe this particular Habs team is not well-beloved of refs. It goes back to the start of the season: remember how many penalties we took when we were tearing up the league in the first 15 games?) Since 2000.... Chris Lee calls 1% fewer penalties than the average ref against 30 NHL teams. He calls 13% more penalties against the Habs than the average ref has called against the Habs. In playoff games, that number spikes to 21% more penalties against the Habs than other refs call. The Habs winning percentage is 46% overall in that time 2000-2020. The Habs winning percentage in games with Chris Lee is 36% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Commandant said: Since 2000.... Chris Lee calls 1% fewer penalties than the average ref against 30 NHL teams. He calls 13% more penalties against the Habs than the average ref has called against the Habs. In playoff games, that number spikes to 21% more penalties against the Habs than other refs call. The Habs winning percentage is 46% overall in that time 2000-2020. The Habs winning percentage in games with Chris Lee is 36% 😵 Shocking data. And certainly data to which the Habs should draw the league's attention (discreetly). I'd hazard a guess that Lee's issue is a pig-headed desire to show that he will not be intimidated by the Habs' notoriously strident fanbase. But whatever the cause, this is unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 43 minutes ago, Commandant said: Since 2000.... Chris Lee calls 1% fewer penalties than the average ref against 30 NHL teams. He calls 13% more penalties against the Habs than the average ref has called against the Habs. In playoff games, that number spikes to 21% more penalties against the Habs than other refs call. The Habs winning percentage is 46% overall in that time 2000-2020. The Habs winning percentage in games with Chris Lee is 36% Absolutely shocking stats! Playoff reffing always came with some “letting them play” but never to the extent of this. Not just for the Habs but Vegas too. I don’t want to be a conspiracy theorist or an old man yelling at clouds type but the idea that NHL doesn’t want a Canadian team there sure feels feasible. Anyway, onto game 5 and I’m sure we will have new refs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Has the reffing been atrocious? 100%. But just play Devil's Advocate - the above figures, in themselves, in no way prove bias. The Habs may just be deservedly taking more penalties. To me, the real problem is less bias per se (although I do think that that exists) than wild inconsistency. They let everything go, then call a completely marginal BS call on Suzuki in Game 3, which they later "make up for" with a marginal call against VGK. The original sin is in letting everything go in the first place. That strategy ALWAYS leads to escalation - reaching a point where guys are punching each other in the face, or brutally cross-checking each other, right in front of the refs; and then everyone is left asking what the hell is going on. The cowardly determination "not to be a factor" leads to the refs being the center of discussion, and a game in which anything goes is a game in which the dirtiest team all too often wins. It also makes injuries much more likely. Incidentally, this is not the first playoff where a skill guy has been punched in the face in front of the ref without reprisal. Doesn't anyone remember Marchand punching Henrik Sedin repeatedly in the 2011 Final? (As for bias, it occurs, not because the ref has a childish fandom for one franchise over another, or because he's been paid off, but because some teams get a reputation among officials for "not playing the right way." The catalogue of sins can be long: maybe they whine too much; maybe they are known for diving, which as we all know is a vastly worse crime than brutally concussing someone; maybe they have a rep for stickwork; whatever. I do believe this particular Habs team is not well-beloved of refs. It goes back to the start of the season: remember how many penalties we took when we were tearing up the league in the first 15 games?) I think we get more penalties and less PP’s, because we lack skill and take dumb lazy penalties. Having said that there was ridiculously obvious calls missed last game. I think they let things go on both sides, but the ones missed against us were MUCH worse. Im not one to usually complain too much about reffing, other than I think NHL officiating and supplementary discipline is probably the worst among among professional sports, but the last two games set an even lower bar of how much incompetency is tolerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 On 6/20/2021 at 7:59 AM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I think the loss of Ducharme as bench boss may prove more significant, in hockey terms, than people are recognizing. He has done an excellent job with adjustments and bench management through these playoffs. Unless we grant that coaches are interchangeable, then it is quite possible Richardson will do worse at the shift-by-shift, bench-managing micro stuff. (The “macro” stuff, like game plans, DD can still oversee, of course). It’s great that we overcame the complete domination by Vegas last game, but that domination was not a good sign. As for DD transmitting Covid to the players, hey, guess what? Maybe LOWERING YOUR MASK EVERY TIME YOU SPEAK is not a great Covid-prevention strategy. Coaches have been doing this all season, and it is dumb as a frigging pylon. What happens if Habs’ players get Covid? Is the series suspended, or do we just have to play without those guys? Or social distancing is the best means of stopping transmission and masks do little anyway. With all of the close contact behind the bench, I highly doubt the mask did anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, BCHabnut said: Or social distancing is the best means of stopping transmission and masks do little anyway. With all of the close contact behind the bench, I highly doubt the mask did anything. Nothing is 100% stopping transmission. Everything is about risk reduction. Lots of distance > less distance, mas > no mask. But continuous pulling down of masks when talking or yelling (and thus potentially spreading virus droplets) is just inane. Stop the charade already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 I thought game 3 was officiated worse than game 4, but that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said: I thought game 3 was officiated worse than game 4, but that's just me. Which games were actually officiated well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, tomh009 said: Nothing is 100% stopping transmission. Everything is about risk reduction. Lots of distance > less distance, mas > no mask. But continuous pulling down of masks when talking or yelling (and thus potentially spreading virus droplets) is just inane. Stop the charade already. Meh. I still doubt it does much. The numbers sort of support it. Everytime there is a lockdown. Numbers plummet. Remove social distancing but wear masks, Numbers skyrocket. He's in every players face talking for long periods. Mask ain't doing shit other than looking responsible. That's what I think. Ps. I'm not an anti masker. It keeps droplets from projecting large distances. But in tight quarters like that, I'm skeptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 25 minutes ago, DON said: Which games were actually officiated well? There have been a few that were at least consistent. The last 2 games and one of the first few games against the leafs were egregious in how one sided and inconsistent they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, BCHabnut said: Meh. I still doubt it does much. The numbers sort of support it. Everytime there is a lockdown. Numbers plummet. Remove social distancing but wear masks, Numbers skyrocket. He's in every players face talking for long periods. Mask ain't doing shit other than looking responsible. That's what I think. Ps. I'm not an anti masker. It keeps droplets from projecting large distances. But in tight quarters like that, I'm skeptical. There may be more to it as well. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/researchers-propose-humidity-masks-may-lessen-severity-covid-19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 Anything that reduces the viral load that a person is exposed to is a help. The mask isn't 100% effective in that some covid particles are so small they go through the fabric. That said, some also get caught in the fabric. So you reduce the viral load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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