Sir_Boagalott Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: At the time Toffoli was traded it was the right move. As for bringing him back, it's a simple question of what are the objectives next season? A serious cup run is very doubtful, so no reason to bring him back. Making the playoffs to give the kids some experience is a possibility, but do you NEED Toffoli for that or do you expect this group to get that done with the progress in their development? If you need Toffoli to make the playoffs for that, then this group needs a bit of reworking to accomplish it on their own. I don't really see a reason to bring Toffoli in at this stage of the rebuild under any circumstance. The only reason I would see a reason is if management has a dramatic shift and wants to make a cup run immediately, which would be very counter productive from where they are now. This isn't a knock on Toffoli at all, I just don't believe it's good for the team or Toffoli at this stage. Well, there are 2 ways to complete the rebuild: 1) continue to suck and draft in top 5 for several more years and then develop them into elite prospects which will take even longer. 2) sign UFA's Everything Hughes has done so far indicates that he isn't into doing #1. Your comments regarding Toffoli would be applicable to every UFA. The Habs definitely need another high end F so they should keep sucking instead? The dramatic shift would be to not target UFAs and there will be numerous good UFA's available this summer. It's true if they sign a UFA this summer they likely wont be ready to win next year, its the following 1-2 yrs. However, the UFA's available this summer will be signed by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Toffoli will be 32 next summer. We may want to sign a UFA, but a 32 year old isnt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Commandant said: Toffoli will be 32 next summer. We may want to sign a UFA, but a 32 year old isnt it. True, that is a good point, but that isn't really a good argument. The Habs are already in a 3 way tie for 3rd youngest team, not to mention that all of the players everybody wants to get rid of are their oldest players. ex: Armia, Gally, Dvorak, Savard, Monahan, Anderson. The Habs will absolutely need veteran leaders, and 1's that survived Sutter and have Cup rings would be preferred. (Toffs might win another ring this year.) I'd keep Pearson for the same reason, and Monahan. Although Sean doesn't have a Cup ring he passed Sutter's tests too. If the Habs had all 3 they'd have 3 veteran players that all play defensively as well as offensively and they'd be on 3 different lines. That would be damn good leadership for the youngsters to learn from their example. The kind of leadership that wins Cups. Hughes is absolutely signing a UFA. Everything he has done points towards that. i.e. drafting Reinbacher vs elite F = plans to sign a F. There's not enough RHD to sign 1, but there are lots of high scoring F's that can be signed. Out of all the current potential UFA's Toffoli and Marchessault are the only 1's that are likely to give the Habs a bit of a discount. Next year I'd move Armia, Dvorak, Savard, and possibly Anderson. That will considerably drop their age and at least 1 of them needs to be replaced with a veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Roy will get a serious serious look in the top 6, if he continues to trend and develop in Laval at this rate. I dont think we are making a splash in UFA market. I think we will trade for a forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 36.7% on faceoffs, not great. Matheson caught everyone off-guard on PP. 26:37 and 5 shots Barron still seems a bit slow in his own end making decisions; but 3 shots, nice work for his goal and 21:22 was alot of icetime. Suzuki still seemed off at times? Just standing still waiting for puck on boards in own end and a Devil picks it off, tired? 4 shots for Gallagher, nicee. #55 earned his assist on Barron's goal. Primeau seemed OK. Habsworld recap; 10 Thoughts: Habs Can’t Keep Up in Loss to Devils – HabsWorld.net Was an interesting call for sure; "7) What a call by the coaching staff to go 6 on 4 with nine minutes to play and it was rewarded with Matheson scoring a big goal. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 9 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: True, that is a good point, but that isn't really a good argument. The Habs are already in a 3 way tie for 3rd youngest team, not to mention that all of the players everybody wants to get rid of are their oldest players. ex: Armia, Gally, Dvorak, Savard, Monahan, Anderson. The Habs will absolutely need veteran leaders, and 1's that survived Sutter and have Cup rings would be preferred. (Toffs might win another ring this year.) I'd keep Pearson for the same reason, and Monahan. Although Sean doesn't have a Cup ring he passed Sutter's tests too. If the Habs had all 3 they'd have 3 veteran players that all play defensively as well as offensively and they'd be on 3 different lines. That would be damn good leadership for the youngsters to learn from their example. The kind of leadership that wins Cups. Hughes is absolutely signing a UFA. Everything he has done points towards that. i.e. drafting Reinbacher vs elite F = plans to sign a F. There's not enough RHD to sign 1, but there are lots of high scoring F's that can be signed. Out of all the current potential UFA's Toffoli and Marchessault are the only 1's that are likely to give the Habs a bit of a discount. Next year I'd move Armia, Dvorak, Savard, and possibly Anderson. That will considerably drop their age and at least 1 of them needs to be replaced with a veteran. If you think being against signing a 32 year olds to long term free agent deal isn't a good argument, i can't help you. We see all around the league that players in their mid 30s hit their decline and the contracts become albatrosses.... if you don't understand that, when you mention Armia, Gallagher, etc.... then I don't know what to say. Replacing one declining player with a bad contract with other declining players with bad contracts is a really bad idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 As mentioned, Toffoli will be 32 next year and a UFA. This will be his last chance for a big contract and he will no doubt get a very good contract as he has always been a consistent goal/point producer, a good team guy and responsible in his own end. What makes anyone think that Montreal should outbid all the other teams in the NHL for his services. Hughes is much smarter than that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, DON said: 36.7% on faceoffs, not great. Faceoff numbers always vary a lot from game to game, depending on how good the centres on the other team are on faceoffs. We've had the Habs dominate at a similar level earlier in the season already, and that wasn't meaningful, either. 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 11 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Well, there are 2 ways to complete the rebuild: 1) continue to suck and draft in top 5 for several more years and then develop them into elite prospects which will take even longer. 2) sign UFA's 3) trade picks and prospects to fill specific needs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 hours ago, tomh009 said: Faceoff numbers always vary a lot from game to game, depending on how good the centres on the other team are on faceoffs. We've had the Habs dominate at a similar level earlier in the season already, and that wasn't meaningful, either. 😊 Could say same about; hits, shots, turnovers, penalties...etc But, having lost 2 of every 3 faceoffs isnt good and likley a factor in loss to a superior team. 1 hour ago, GHT120 said: 3) trade picks and prospects to fill specific needs Agree, are many different way to go about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 48 minutes ago, DON said: Could say same about; hits, shots, turnovers, penalties...etc Faceoffs are even less so, as almost all of them are taken by three or four players only--and not 20--against three or four opposing players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 There are approximately 1000 or so one on one puck battles in the course of a hockey game. For some reason we only keep stats and only think they matter when we look at the 50 or so of these battles that involve a linesman dropping a puck, the other 950 or so, no one every sites the stats on. This is why faceoff percentage is extremely overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Commandant said: There are approximately 1000 or so one on one puck battles in the course of a hockey game. For some reason we only keep stats and only think they matter when we look at the 50 or so of these battles that involve a linesman dropping a puck, the other 950 or so, no one every sites the stats on. This is why faceoff percentage is extremely overrated. OK, so I'm no stats expert, that's for sure. What I've always thought about faceoffs is that they assume true importance at certain key moments. E.g., an in-zone faceoff in a close game with one minute left either gives your team possession or it doesn't. That can be the difference between a game won and lost. We've all seen that movie. So I suppose if I were tracking FOs I would try to create a "key faceoff" category combining the closeness of the score with the amount of time left on the clock. A guy who can reliably win those faceoffs would deserve to be regarded as a valuable asset, it seems to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 25 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: OK, so I'm no stats expert, that's for sure. What I've always thought about faceoffs is that they assume true importance at certain key moments. E.g., an in-zone faceoff in a close game with one minute left either gives your team possession or it doesn't. That can be the difference between a game won and lost. We've all seen that movie. So I suppose if I were tracking FOs I would try to create a "key faceoff" category combining the closeness of the score with the amount of time left on the clock. A guy who can reliably win those faceoffs would deserve to be regarded as a valuable asset, it seems to me. I would absolutely agree, that faceoff in the last minute of play when you are holding a 1 goal lead is critical. One of the reasons Patrice Bergeron was so valuable. Also in today's NHL winning that faceoff at center ice in overtime is really important. It has been the difference between winning and losing games many times, especially when playing against McDavid/Draisatl, or McKinnon/Makar etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 10 hours ago, Commandant said: If you think being against signing a 32 year olds to long term free agent deal isn't a good argument, i can't help you. We see all around the league that players in their mid 30s hit their decline and the contracts become albatrosses.... if you don't understand that, when you mention Armia, Gallagher, etc.... then I don't know what to say. Replacing one declining player with a bad contract with other declining players with bad contracts is a really bad idea. Well, I never said long term and certainly didn't imply a 8 year deal or max $ either. Armia and Gally are bad contracts because they are under producing and are paid too much for their output. 9 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: As mentioned, Toffoli will be 32 next year and a UFA. This will be his last chance for a big contract and he will no doubt get a very good contract as he has always been a consistent goal/point producer, a good team guy and responsible in his own end. What makes anyone think that Montreal should outbid all the other teams in the NHL for his services. Hughes is much smarter than that. I never suggested they should get into a bidding war, like trying to obtain Stamkos if he is available. Toffoli has played for the Habs and liked it and would probably want to return and he'd possibly sign for a discount. Toffoli has always been underrated and highly undervalued so trying to bring him back for 3 maybe 4 years for 6 mil or under isn't a crazy idea that's being implied by basically everyone here. What veteran UFA do you guys think they should target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 31 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Well, I never said long term and certainly didn't imply a 8 year deal or max $ either. Armia and Gally are bad contracts because they are under producing and are paid too much for their output. I never suggested they should get into a bidding war, like trying to obtain Stamkos if he is available. Toffoli has played for the Habs and liked it and would probably want to return and he'd possibly sign for a discount. Toffoli has always been underrated and highly undervalued so trying to bring him back for 3 maybe 4 years for 6 mil or under isn't a crazy idea that's being implied by basically everyone here. What veteran UFA do you guys think they should target? No way do I want to sign a 32 year old for 3 or 4 years for $6m. Hen it’s time to sign a UFA, we should be looking at the 27-29 age group for any 3yr plus term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Well, I never said long term and certainly didn't imply a 8 year deal or max $ either. Armia and Gally are bad contracts because they are under producing and are paid too much for their output. I never suggested they should get into a bidding war, like trying to obtain Stamkos if he is available. Toffoli has played for the Habs and liked it and would probably want to return and he'd possibly sign for a discount. Toffoli has always been underrated and highly undervalued so trying to bring him back for 3 maybe 4 years for 6 mil or under isn't a crazy idea that's being implied by basically everyone here. What veteran UFA do you guys think they should target? I can't think of any veteran UFA guys they should target right now, maybe when they are legitimate contenders they can look at possible targets. I would rather see their younger guys get ice time at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 7 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I can't think of any veteran UFA guys they should target right now, maybe when they are legitimate contenders they can look at possible targets. I would rather see their younger guys get ice time at this point. I don;t have time, but I would look for pending UFAs that would be a better fit than a veteran in the Habs roster: to flip with that team in a trade and sign deal. Habs could dump a contract with a bit of term and get a player that fits better with the rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 12 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: What veteran UFA do you guys think they should target? William Nylander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, DON said: William Nylander. He's the right profile. He'll be 27 next summer and a long-term contract is not ridiculous at that point, a player like him would be an asset for many years through the Habs' contending window. So, someone like Nylander ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 1 hour ago, DON said: William Nylander. he would likely be the only winger I think we could target that would make us significantly better. Im not so sure I would want to throw 10+ million at him though. I think trading one of our budding Dman, a mid tier forward prospect and picks for a younger not so highly paid stud winger would be more up my alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 13 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: ... I never suggested they should get into a bidding war, like trying to obtain Stamkos if he is available ... Hopefully you meant like when they TRIED to get into the bidding war for Stamkos in 2016 ... and not next summer when SS will be 34. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 I don’t think Hughes should just go out and sign a veteran UFA for the sake of it. It has to be a guy who is young enough that his contract will not cripple the team once it gets to its contending window. I also don’t believe we should cling to the fantasy of a “discount” signing for an impact UFA. If you want higher-end UFAs, you almost always have to overpay in both money and term. (This is not always true of mid-range and lower-end guys, though). So UFA money needs to be spent very carefully and very strategically. In this context, I will say that it’s such a good thing that we have both Suzuki and Caufield locked up long-term. We don’t have to wring our hands and say things like “if we sign a UFA, we won’t be able to keep Caufield” etc. By contrast, Vancouver still hasn’t nailed down Petterson, and there is considerable anxiety in the fanbase about the possibility of losing this bona-fide stud C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 Holy hell Nylander would look very good beside Suzuki and Caufield. Not sure I’m willing to spend an enormous amount over 7 years though. Tough call and I wouldn’t be upset if it happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 An elite top line forward (e.g. a top ten or twenty scorer for example) still lacking, Caufield seems he may become one, but not yet. Would be very costly obviously, but has been lacking in a Hab jersey since last century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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