2023/2024 season playoff discussion

[alfredoh2009]

No way we agree on that, @GHT120. Let's try a different topic where we may agree:

 

1) KK will resign with the Habs

2) The Senators are going to spend more than the league average

3) Rooting for Boston is better than rooting for Toronto

4) None of the above

 

 

 

[illWill]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

As I previously explained above ... the player contract wasn't low-ball, it was market value ... it was a low-ball offer sheet from the perspective of having ANY chance of Carolina not matching ... but clearly you don't care about understanding, just trolling somebody.

 

You literally gave me 4(!) reasons WHY he signed it. Aho was happy with the contract, meaning it was not a low-ball offer as I originally replied to. Clearly Carolina didn't make an offer that was as good up to that point. 

 

Bergevin's offer came in at exactly the top of its compensatory bracket, as he didn't want to give up another first round pick by offering more. He also front loaded it as you say, because he felt that the owner didn't want to pony up that much cash at the time. Based on the reaction by Carolina to the offer sheet, it appears that he was right. It was a calculated move and it didn't work out. Most offer sheets are matched, are they all stupid as well? 

 

 

[dlbalr]

4 hours ago, GHT120 said:

It was low-ball in terms of any chance of Carolina not matching ... Aho signed because it was (a) a market-value AAV, (b) front loaded, (c) each year was almost entirely signing bonus paid July 1st, with minimum annual salary which ever-so-slightly from his perspective increases each year per CBA and (d) he was OK with moving to Montréal if Carolina didn't match.

 

And e), it got him to UFA eligibility much earlier.  The Hurricanes wanted to sign him to an eight-year deal.  By taking the offer sheet, he got to his richer contract three years sooner while still in his prime. 

[GHT120]

59 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

And e), it got him to UFA eligibility much earlier.  The Hurricanes wanted to sign him to an eight-year deal.  By taking the offer sheet, he got to his richer contract three years sooner while still in his prime. 

Very true ... in THEORY it was a good plan on his part; hasn't quite worked out as intended as he faces the possibility of a 1/3 buyout next month, and the 2025/2026 off-seasons if he doesn't get his shyte together.

Assume you meant the Canadiens wanted to sign him for 8-years.

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, illWill said:

You literally gave me 4(!) reasons WHY he signed it. Aho was happy with the contract, meaning it was not a low-ball offer as I originally replied to.

HOW OFTEN does it have to be explained to you what was meant by "low-ball" was that it was insufficient in the context of an offer sheet as the intent of an offer sheet would be to actually obtain the player (it was fair market-value, so there was virtually zero chance Carolina wouldn't match), not in the context of the value of the contract to the player ... those are two distinctly different concepts.

 

EDIT: the four answers were all valid reason why Aho signed the deal ... and not related to why it was a "low-ball" offer sheet.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

4 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

HOW OFTEN does it have to be explained to you what was meant by "low-ball" was that it was insufficient in the context of an offer sheet as the intent of an offer sheet would be to actually obtain the player (it was fair market-value, so there was virtually zero chance Carolina wouldn't match), not in the context of the value of the contract to the player ... those are two distinctly different concepts.

 

EDIT: the four answers were all valid reason why Aho signed the deal ... and not related to why it was a "low-ball" offer sheet.

Valiant effort sir in explaining this but I’m not sure there is understanding. 
 

Bergevin was trying to get a bargain. Only “Bargin Bin Bergevin” would make such a pathetic low ball offer for Carolina’s star forward. 
 

The low ball offer has nothing to do with Aho and everything to do with Carolina. 
 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

8 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

The Bergevin offer sheet to Aho was ridiculously low ball and not a serious offer at all. 
 

That led to revenge by the canes which has screwed them. 
 

It also led to Bergevin paying WAY TOO MUCH for Dvorak. 
 

So to me this entire scenario was an idiot GM being an idiot, followed be another idiot GM being an even bigger idiot, followed by the first idiot GM doubling down on his idiotness. 
 

The only positive in all of this is that we are free of that low class idiot. 

100% Agree!

[dlbalr]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Very true ... in THEORY it was a good plan on his part; hasn't quite worked out as intended as he faces the possibility of a 1/3 buyout next month, and the 2025/2026 off-seasons if he doesn't get his shyte together.

Assume you meant the Canadiens wanted to sign him for 8-years.

 

Nope, I legitimately meant Carolina as I'm talking about Aho, not Kotkaniemi.  If the Habs offered an eight-year deal, the compensation would have been much higher since the maximum divisor is five years so the picks owed would be based on total compensation for 8 years divided by 5.  By putting the AAV where they did, there was no way they could go higher than 5 years.  Carolina, meanwhile, had been pushing for a max-term agreement to that point.

 

With Kotkaniemi, Montreal was only offering a bridge deal for understandable reasons.

[illWill]

Man I haven't posted here in a long time and now I remember why

[alfredoh2009]

27 minutes ago, illWill said:

Man I haven't posted here in a long time and now I remember why

You are missed, @illWill

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

Nope, I legitimately meant Carolina as I'm talking about Aho, not Kotkaniemi.  If the Habs offered an eight-year deal, the compensation would have been much higher since the maximum divisor is five years so the picks owed would be based on total compensation for 8 years divided by 5.  By putting the AAV where they did, there was no way they could go higher than 5 years.  Carolina, meanwhile, had been pushing for a max-term agreement to that point.

 

With Kotkaniemi, Montreal was only offering a bridge deal for understandable reasons.

Ahhhhhhh ... the "legal" March 21, 2022 extension that was NEVER discussed or agreed to as part of the offer sheet negotiations ... now I get you.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Boston looks dead tired and aren’t very good in their own zone tonight. 
 

Florida is playing good hockey 

[GHT120]

9 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Boston looks dead tired and aren’t very good in their own zone tonight. 
 

Florida is playing good hockey 

Boston won Game 1 with carry-over energy beating rust ... and Florida won Game 2 with rest over exhaustion ... on to Game 3

[Prime Minister Koivu]

What a great game in Vancouver. It’s now 5-4 Canucks with 4 minutes to go in the third. 
 

What a third period by Vancouver 

[Sir_Boagalott]

13 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I thought that it was structured to only loose one first round pick but still to handcuff CAR down the road.

What I forget now is what was the drama leading to it, I think CAR had screwed the Habs in a trade before or that they had outbid each other over some UFAs.

 

 

I think you might be correct on there being some silly incident before the Aho offer.  I don't recall exactly what it was either but I believe it was something petty and ridiculous. ex:  did Waddell snub MB at a GM's meeting, draft or some event, where he didnt know who MB was? Like MB tried to shake hands with him but he refused. I vaguely remember something funny like that happening to MB.  I forget who the other GM was but there is a good probability that it was Waddell.     

 

I don't believe MB had any intention of ending up with Aho at all.  He just wanted to spend the Cannes money and tie up their cap for years and force them into paying Aho for longer than they wanted.  Aho likely got more than the what the cheap Cannes owner would have offered him.

 

I recently heard that Brind-a'mor won't be back. He was in talks for renewing his contract and they worked out a deal that would make him the 11-12th highest paid coach.  Apparently, the owner stepped in and nixed the deal.  I could see him ending up in Seattle.  

[Prime Minister Koivu]

4 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

I think you might be correct on there being some silly incident before the Aho offer.  I don't recall exactly what it was either but I believe it was something petty and ridiculous. ex:  did Waddell snub MB at a GM's meeting, draft or some event, where he didnt know who MB was? Like MB tried to shake hands with him but he refused. I vaguely remember something funny like that happening to MB.  I forget who the other GM was but there is a good probability that it was Waddell.     

 

I don't believe MB had any intention of ending up with Aho at all.  He just wanted to spend the Cannes money and tie up their cap for years and force them into paying Aho for longer than they wanted.  Aho likely got more than the what the cheap Cannes owner would have offered him.

 

I recently heard that Brind-a'mor won't be back. He was in talks for renewing his contract and they worked out a deal that would make him the 11-12th highest paid coach.  Apparently, the owner stepped in and nixed the deal.  I could see him ending up in Seattle.  

So that entire debacle was about revenge?

 

Bergevin gets butthurt so he offer sheets a star player. 
 

That team gets butthurt and offer sheets a young, top pick. 
 

Habs get screwed by overpaying for Dvorak and Canes get screwed by overpaying for a potential bust. 
 

All because of ego…,

 

I genuinely love the professionalism of our new HuGo overlords. 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

So that entire debacle was about revenge?

 

Bergevin gets butthurt so he offer sheets a star player. 
 

That team gets butthurt and offer sheets a young, top pick. 
 

Habs get screwed by overpaying for Dvorak and Canes get screwed by overpaying for a potential bust. 
 

All because of ego…,

 

I genuinely love the professionalism of our new HuGo overlords. 

Well,

 

1) considering the story is likely not true

and

 

2) considering Carolina would have also matched a higher offer,

 

It seems as though the only reason the armchair GMs on here are upset that Bergevin didn’t offer a higher number was that he didn’t troll the other GM enough so it’s exactly the same thing.
 

Was Bergevin

 

a) actually trying to get Aho on the team under a reasonable contract?

 

or 

 

b) attempting to punish the other organization?

 

It’s a strawman argument that Bergevin “low balled” the offer, but the truth is we weren’t getting Aho anyway, unless we ridiculously overpaid to the extent that people would have been complaining on the other extreme.

 

The point you guys are trying to make is MOOT.

[DON]

Too bad Drasitle got hurt again, hope isnt serious.

But great comeback again by Canucks.

Fun game.

[Helmethead]

52 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Well,

 

1) considering the story is likely not true

and

 

2) considering Carolina would have also matched a higher offer,

 

It seems as though the only reason the armchair GMs on here are upset that Bergevin didn’t offer a higher number was that he didn’t troll the other GM enough so it’s exactly the same thing.
 

Was Bergevin

 

a) actually trying to get Aho on the team under a reasonable contract?

 

or 

 

b) attempting to punish the other organization?

 

It’s a strawman argument that Bergevin “low balled” the offer, but the truth is we weren’t getting Aho anyway, unless we ridiculously overpaid to the extent that people would have been complaining on the other extreme.

 

The point you guys are trying to make is MOOT.

 

I've always believed that the offer sheet Bergevin made was the right one.

 

He tried to expose Canes ownership's liquidity issues.  They did their research and thought the risk/reward was there.  They obviously did not want to part with higher draft picks.

 

So in my view it wasn't a low ball offer.

 

Bergevin's mistake was that he should've known he had a target on his back and protected himself accordingly.

 

Which he didn't.

 

And there in lied the problem.

[Commandant]

7 minutes ago, Helmethead said:

 

I've always believed that the offer sheet Bergevin made was the right one.

 

He tried to expose Canes ownership's liquidity issues.  They did their research and thought the risk/reward was there.  They obviously did not want to part with higher draft picks.

 

So in my view it wasn't a low ball offer.

 

Bergevin's mistake was that he should've known he had a target on his back and protected himself accordingly.

 

Which he didn't.

 

And there in lied the problem.

 

I think this is the correct interpretation.

 

Aho's offersheet was the max it could be without giving up a second first round pick.  It was a gamble but a well calculated one.  The Hurricanes matched it but clearly they werent happy about it (no matter what they said publically).  They took the first opportunity on a revenge sheet, despite it being a terrible move for them.

 

They also got extremely petty about it, in the terms of the deal, adding in little numbers to allude back to the Aho deal, and in their social media.  They clearly got rattled.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

9 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

What a great game in Vancouver. It’s now 5-4 Canucks with 4 minutes to go in the third. 
 

What a third period by Vancouver 

 

I thought Van was totally outclassed in the first, but actually outplayed EDM in the second despite surrendering two goals, and completely dominated the third.

 

That team has a lot of resilience and just enough offensive depth to be able to score crippling goals. Hella game by JT Miller, who is one of the league’s more underrated stars.

 

Edmonton is lucky that Demko is hurt. If he’d been in net, the score would not been nearly as close IMHO. Silov was OK but did not impress. (I would not be surprised at all if the Canucks go with DeSmith next game).

 

Interestingly, McDavid was pretty much a non-factor all night. I’d have liked more analysis of that - was it that Hughes was skating with him and able to contain him? Was it something else Vancouver did? Was it the Dreiseitl injury that allowed Van to focus on McDavid more relentlessly? 

 

Of course McDavid will break out soon, and that’s where not having Demko is apt to really hurt the Canucks.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Well,

 

1) considering the story is likely not true

and

 

2) considering Carolina would have also matched a higher offer,

 

It seems as though the only reason the armchair GMs on here are upset that Bergevin didn’t offer a higher number was that he didn’t troll the other GM enough so it’s exactly the same thing.
 

Was Bergevin

 

a) actually trying to get Aho on the team under a reasonable contract?

 

or 

 

b) attempting to punish the other organization?

 

It’s a strawman argument that Bergevin “low balled” the offer, but the truth is we weren’t getting Aho anyway, unless we ridiculously overpaid to the extent that people would have been complaining on the other extreme.

 

The point you guys are trying to make is MOOT.

 

38 minutes ago, Helmethead said:

 

I've always believed that the offer sheet Bergevin made was the right one.

 

He tried to expose Canes ownership's liquidity issues.  They did their research and thought the risk/reward was there.  They obviously did not want to part with higher draft picks.

 

So in my view it wasn't a low ball offer.

 

Bergevin's mistake was that he should've known he had a target on his back and protected himself accordingly.

 

Which he didn't.

 

And there in lied the problem.

 

30 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I think this is the correct interpretation.

 

Aho's offersheet was the max it could be without giving up a second first round pick.  It was a gamble but a well calculated one.  The Hurricanes matched it but clearly they werent happy about it (no matter what they said publically).  They took the first opportunity on a revenge sheet, despite it being a terrible move for them.

 

They also got extremely petty about it, in the terms of the deal, adding in little numbers to allude back to the Aho deal, and in their social media.  They clearly got rattled.

This is the entire point of a discussion board. To share ideas and opinions and debate those ideas and opinions. 
 

I agree with the idea that Bergevin tried to use the Canes roster/cap/financial liquidity to get a bargain. 
 

But that’s my problem. Bergevin never addressed our lack of forwards because he always looked for bargains. 
 

Hughes solved our centre problem immediately and he did so by paying the required cost. 
 

Bergevin was trying to get Aho for cheaper than what he paid for Dvorak!

 

All of this is water under the bridge and this board has had endless discussions about Bergevin’s competency. 
 

If we want to rehash the Bergevin talk then maybe we need a new thread. 
 

 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

40 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I thought Van was totally outclassed in the first, but actually outplayed EDM in the second despite surrendering two goals, and completely dominated the third.

 

That team has a lot of resilience and just enough offensive depth to be able to score crippling goals. Hella game by JT Miller, who is one of the league’s more underrated stars.

 

Edmonton is lucky that Demko is hurt. If he’d been in net, the score would not been nearly as close IMHO. Silov was OK but did not impress. (I would not be surprised at all if the Canucks go with DeSmith next game).

 

Interestingly, McDavid was pretty much a non-factor all night. I’d have liked more analysis of that - was it that Hughes was skating with him and able to contain him? Was it something else Vancouver did? Was it the Dreiseitl injury that allowed Van to focus on McDavid more relentlessly? 

 

Of course McDavid will break out soon, and that’s where not having Demko is apt to really hurt the Canucks.

Yeah the first period was rough but Edmonton just danced around the Vancouver zone. Always looking for that cross pass through the goal mouth for that tap in. 
 

When Vancouver got on their rush game, Edmonton looked clueless about taking care in their Dzone 

 

I picked Vancouver to win the series and I think that’s what will happen. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

54 minutes ago, Helmethead said:

 

I've always believed that the offer sheet Bergevin made was the right one.

 

He tried to expose Canes ownership's liquidity issues.  They did their research and thought the risk/reward was there.  They obviously did not want to part with higher draft picks.

 

So in my view it wasn't a low ball offer.

 

Bergevin's mistake was that he should've known he had a target on his back and protected himself accordingly.

 

Which he didn't.

 

And there in lied the problem.

 

I also agree with this interpretation, Bergevin didn't want to give up a 2nd  1st round pick so he structured it accordingly with a lot of money up front (if I remember correctly).  All he ended up doing was really ticking the Canes ownership off who waited to get revenge. Given the way KK has turned out, everyone is a loser. 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I also agree with this interpretation, Bergevin didn't want to give up a 2nd  1st round pick so he structured it accordingly with a lot of money up front (if I remember correctly).  All he ended up doing was really ticking the Canes ownership off who waited to get revenge. Given the way KK has turned out, everyone is a loser. 

Yes that’s one main point, BOTH sides lost