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Fire Bergevin


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On 5/15/2021 at 2:34 PM, Chris said:

 

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  

I've been posting for years and you're just letting me know this now!!!!! All those strange comments and looks.... scheeesh!

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13 hours ago, DON said:

Which d-man should he of added at deadline, with little $$ to spend, that would be a significant upgrade? 

Which good ones moved at the deadline?

TBL managed to get David Savard (and took on AHLer Brian Lashoff) with a $1,062,500 cap hit, less than the cap impact of Gustafsson ($1.5M), let alone Merrill ($925K) ... of course that took some creativity and a willingness to give up a 2021 first rounder (as well as 2022 3rd) ... before the season MB said the objective was «de rentrer et de faire du dommage en séries» ... presumably "damage" would mean winning at least one round and therefore drafting no earlier than the early 20s ... 2021 was already projected as at best an average draft, and is even more of a crapshoot than usual because of the bizarre "amateur" schedules that totally messed up scouting ... so IMO no reason to not have given up a first for a player that, while perhaps not an ideal top 4 defender, could have at least stabilized the 3rd pairing and allowed a slightly more balanced workload deployment of the defence ... of course by mid-March MB's tune was back to “make the playoffs and once we get in, I feel that anything is possible".

 

There was also Montour, who is playing 19 minutes for Florida in the playoffs ... they got him for a 3rd rounder at full cap-hit ... but Buffalo had one remaining retained salary slot, so some creativity could again have reduced the cap hit.

 

In no way do I see either move making the Habs a serious Cap contender ... but having made significant moves entering the season, reinforcing the defence with a goal of winning at least a couple of rounds in the playoffs would provide valuable experience for Suzuki, KK, Romanov, Evans and even Lehkonen ... as well as the Black Aces.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

In no way do I see either move making the Habs a serious Cap contender ... but having made significant moves entering the season, reinforcing the defence with a goal of winning at least a couple of rounds in the playoffs would provide valuable experience for Suzuki, KK, Romanov, Evans and even Lehkonen ... as well as the Black Aces.

That was surely Bergevin's goal as well. Whether the moves he made support that is the point of discussion.

 

Personally, I think he did great in the offseason, filling as many of our big gaps as was reasonably possible -- but I think a deadline deal that he was working on fell through, and he panicked. So, we ended up with Staal, Merrill and Gustafsson, a less than ideal package, although it does give us depth should we have significant injuries in the playoffs.

 

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

We also keep talking about 9 years without admitting that GMs van learn and develop and get better.  Hes not the same GM he was as a rookie, just like players grow, he did too.

 

Indeed. I still prefer to clean house in the front office and coaching staff, but he's definitely a better GM than he was five years ago.

 

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

TBL managed to get David Savard (and took on AHLer Brian Lashoff) with a $1,062,500 cap hit, less than the cap impact of Gustafsson ($1.5M), let alone Merrill ($925K) ... of course that took some creativity and a willingness to give up a 2021 first rounder (as well as 2022 3rd) ... before the season MB said the objective was «de rentrer et de faire du dommage en séries» ... presumably "damage" would mean winning at least one round and therefore drafting no earlier than the early 20s ... 2021 was already projected as at best an average draft, and is even more of a crapshoot than usual because of the bizarre "amateur" schedules that totally messed up scouting ... so IMO no reason to not have given up a first for a player that, while perhaps not an ideal top 4 defender, could have at least stabilized the 3rd pairing and allowed a slightly more balanced workload deployment of the defence ... of course by mid-March MB's tune was back to “make the playoffs and once we get in, I feel that anything is possible".

 

There was also Montour, who is playing 19 minutes for Florida in the playoffs ... they got him for a 3rd rounder at full cap-hit ... but Buffalo had one remaining retained salary slot, so some creativity could again have reduced the cap hit.

 

In no way do I see either move making the Habs a serious Cap contender ... but having made significant moves entering the season, reinforcing the defence with a goal of winning at least a couple of rounds in the playoffs would provide valuable experience for Suzuki, KK, Romanov, Evans and even Lehkonen ... as well as the Black Aces.

 

Savard and Montour are both right side guys, so they add very little to a team that has Petry and Weber.  Adding Savard for is a great move for a team with Hedman, McDonagh, and Sergachev on the left side. Adding Savard to a team whose biggest hole is a top guy on the left side makes very little difference. 

 

Mattias Ekholm was the only player out there on the left side that would have made a significant impact on this team. Once Nashville got back into contention, that option dried up. I'll ding Bergevin for thinking Staal still had something left in the tank, and the odd acquistion of Gustafsson, but picking up Merrill on the cheap didn't make or break this season.  

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43 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

... Savard and Montour are both right side guys, so they add very little to a team that has Petry and Weber.  Adding Savard for is a great move for a team with Hedman, McDonagh, and Sergachev on the left side. Adding Savard to a team whose biggest hole is a top guy on the left side makes very little difference. 

 

Mattias Ekholm was the only player out there on the left side that would have made a significant impact on this team. Once Nashville got back into contention, that option dried up. I'll ding Bergevin for thinking Staal still had something left in the tank, and the odd acquistion of Gustafsson, but picking up Merrill on the cheap didn't make or break this season.  

A LH-PM-D was obviously the ideal acquisition, but they weren't available ... Savard, and to a lesser degree Montour,  would have stabilized the 3rd pairing ... allowed Petry and Weber to not carry quite as heavy a load ... provided legit NHL depth if Weber or Petry were injured ... and maybe even supported Romanov through his late season issues and allowed the most physical Habs defenceman to be in the playoff lineup.

 

The option is not, or should not be, having the perfect 5-star meal or picking through the dumpster behind McDonalds. 

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Yeah, I wouldn't give up a first round pick for a rental RHD that is gonna play on the third pair.  Sure if you are tampa and a true cup contender you can go all in like that.  We aren't a true cup contender and Savard isn't the missing piece that makes us one. 

 

as for montour, he's played minutes, he hasn't played them well. 

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7 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Yeah, I wouldn't give up a first round pick for a rental RHD that is gonna play on the third pair.  Sure if you are tampa and a true cup contender you can go all in like that.  We aren't a true cup contender and Savard isn't the missing piece that makes us one. 

 

as for montour, he's played minutes, he hasn't played them well. 

 

Agree with that, you don't throw around 1st round picks unless you are a serious contender like the Leafs or Tampa.  It might not work out for them but when you are close you have to take a shot. 

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4 hours ago, Commandant said:

We also keep talking about 9 years without admitting that GMs van learn and develop and get better.  Hes not the same GM he was as a rookie, just like players grow, he did too.

 

That’s why I favour a relatively short-term renewal for him, e.g., 2 years. His overall body of work is mediocre, but his recent work has been stellar. So keep him on and see if he can sustain his recent hot streak. Basically, do with him exactly what he did with the Subban bridge deal that proceeded to blow up in his face.

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29 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

That’s why I favour a relatively short-term renewal for him, e.g., 2 years. His overall body of work is mediocre, but his recent work has been stellar. So keep him on and see if he can sustain his recent hot streak. Basically, do with him exactly what he did with the Subban bridge deal that proceeded to blow up in his face.

 

I think that's a fair assessment, I really  like his recent work other than the Sergachev trade. 

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They should be 3 losses away from the unemployment line. 

 

Still no offense after 9 years, shaky defense at best and the team 100% relies on 1 player.

 

 

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It wasn;t after 1 loss, 3 real good efforts gave them game 1, Price Byron and Anderson 

 

They were under 500 the last 42 games, 5th worst last year 

 

only a pandemic saved them for the playoffs 

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17 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

That’s a fair statement after this type of loss 

 

we

will know by next weekend 

 

Yes, we should look at getting rid of the GM every time the team loses a game badly. I have said this before, I think MB has done a good job the last couple years, he has fixed many holes, accumulated many draft picks so we actually have some depth in the system.  If he had been fired a couple years ago I would have understood. I think he has really picked his game up. There are still some holes to fill but I think this team is closer to being a serious contender than it has been in a while. Some/many here will disagree which is why these boards are fun but I think we  keep MB whether we beat Toronto or not. 

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I like the team we have these playoffs due to Bergevin’s recent moves. Here’s to hoping we can take the Leafs.
 

I think semis this year would be a success. Then we’re going to likely have to face the best team in the NHL at that point. 

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2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Whether you like them or not, both Ducharme and Bergevin are 3 wins away from long term big $ contracts. 
 

Small price to pay for winning the cup this year

 

If winning one round constitutes the damage in the playoffs that was MB's own expectations this season then I guess an extension is warranted ... now, if they win the Cup I could see the long-term, big$ contracts ... but that is 15 wins away

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I am not measuring MB by whether they win one round or not this year. I think a good GM puts the pieces in place so a franchise can be a contender for many years like New Jersey and Detroit were for long stretches.  I think MB was definitely not successful during his earlier years but I think the last couple years the Habs have more good young players/prospects than they have had in a long time which bodes well for the future. You need a continual stream of good young players because you always needs some good players on entry level contracts so you can make the cap work. I think MB has finally figured this out. 

 

Also if you get rid of MB then you have to find a French speaking GM to take over. It's not a deep pool to choose from. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I am not measuring MB by whether they win one round or not this year. I think a good GM puts the pieces in place so a franchise can be a contender for many years like New Jersey and Detroit were for long stretches.  I think MB was definitely not successful during his earlier years but I think the last couple years the Habs have more good young players/prospects than they have had in a long time which bodes well for the future. You need a continual stream of good young players because you always needs some good players on entry level contracts so you can make the cap work. I think MB has finally figured this out. 

 

Also if you get rid of MB then you have to find a French speaking GM to take over. It's not a deep pool to choose from. 

 

 

 I agree with you on that (highlighted)

 I think that the lack of elite talent among the prospects is what is playing against him. I will not revisit the draft picks here, that needs its own thread (I think there is an old one that can be used).

 

in my view, success in the playoff against the Leafs will provide some proof that his recent moves (the second rebuild for some) is warrant of better days ahead. IF (bit if) the Habs eliminate the Leafs, it will prove that cap management, loading on 2nd, 3rd, 4th draft picks and protecting prospects/assets is paying off. it will also show that not overpaying for free agents and picking bargain unheralded UFAs is allowing him to sign gems like Toffoli and Allen.

 

One week will silent most critics

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9 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I am not measuring MB by whether they win one round or not this year. I think a good GM puts the pieces in place so a franchise can be a contender for many years like New Jersey and Detroit were for long stretches.  I think MB was definitely not successful during his earlier years but I think the last couple years the Habs have more good young players/prospects than they have had in a long time which bodes well for the future. You need a continual stream of good young players because you always needs some good players on entry level contracts so you can make the cap work. I think MB has finally figured this out ...

Agree the last 2-3 drafts look good ... but other than Romanov, KK and Caufield none of the players selected are really in a position to help the habs for another couple of seasons ... so it is a matter of faith/optimism that the Habs will be even a semi-annual playoff team ... from 15/16 through 18/19 the Habs made the playoffs once, would not have last season except for Covid and would have been 5th in the Atlantic and 10th in the East based on Pts% this season (albeit with different schedules) ... MB may have added some players you need in the playoffs, but Price and Weber seem to perhaps no longer be players to "get you to the playoffs" 

 

19 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

... Also if you get rid of MB then you have to find a French speaking GM to take over. It's not a deep pool to choose from. 

THAT is an argument to keep him regardless of whether he is doing a good job ... not certain that is enough.

 

 

Winning a couple of playoff rounds would certainly support an extension ...while a first round exit leaves ammunition for both sides of the argument ... expect many electrons will die in this discussion.

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3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

... One week will silent most critics

OR supporters ... time will tell

;)

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2 hours ago, Chris said:

He fixed the holes he created 

He made the holes on D worse. Multi year to Alzner vs two years for Markov hurts.  Sergechev move still hurts. Not finding an equivalent replacement hurts even more. Right now I’d also rather have one more year of Subban eating up cap space than 5 more years of Weber.

 

has not helped that only home grown defense draft pick left that’s played a half season or more is Romanov. So much for building theough the draft!  Have not picked up an elite dman in a trade or free agency since Petry.  MB had basically been acquiring marginal dman that were the same type of easily replaceable dmen as he was in his playing days.

 

Despite his +/- I don’t consider Edmondson as anything more than a depth D that would fill at best the #4 slot, or more likely bottom pairing on a good team.

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58 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 I agree with you on that (highlighted)

 I think that the lack of elite talent among the prospects is what is playing against him. I will not revisit the draft picks here, that needs its own thread (I think there is an old one that can be used).

 

in my view, success in the playoff against the Leafs will provide some proof that his recent moves (the second rebuild for some) is warrant of better days ahead. IF (bit if) the Habs eliminate the Leafs, it will prove that cap management, loading on 2nd, 3rd, 4th draft picks and protecting prospects/assets is paying off. it will also show that not overpaying for free agents and picking bargain unheralded UFAs is allowing him to sign gems like Toffoli and Allen.

 

One week will silent most critics

 

Good points.  The Habs drafting is another issue. Great scouts can make almost any GM look good and vice versa. Of course the GM also has to trust the scouts as well. The year the Oilers drafted Yakupov the Edmonton scouts did not want to draft him #1 but Tambellini insisted, probably ended up costing him his job.  That is for another thread though. 

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